Living and Leading with Joy, Trust, and Creative Freedom with Heather Vickery (From Substack LIve)
You ever get that gut feeling to do something wild — the kind that makes zero sense on paper but just feels right?
That’s how this Substack Live with Heather Vickery started.
Heather’s a Joy Warrior: coach, retreat host, and professional permission-giver for anyone tired of living by other people’s rules. We talked about what it means to lead with joy, why curating your circle matters, and how trusting your gut can lead you places your brain never would’ve approved of.
It was a great conversation even with the tech hiccup in the middle.
Finding Clarity in Creative Spaces
We dove into the power of community and collaboration. Heather calls it the “collective mind” — drawing on the energy and ideas of others can spark some of your most innovative work.
But we did agreed that having too many ideas without a filter can be overwhelming. Boundaries aren’t just nice to have. They’re essential for clarity and focus.
Heather: “I take intentional pauses to reflect on what truly serves me.”
Me: And I realized that I do the same thing, but in a different way — sifting through inspiration, holding onto the ideas that really line up with my goals, and letting the rest fall away.
Try this: Notice one idea or opportunity you’ve been juggling. Which one actually lights you up? Which feels like busywork?
Bonus idea: Give yourself permission to drop the rest, even temporarily. Creativity isn’t a sprint.
Vulnerability, Leadership, and Showing Up
One thread that kept coming up was vulnerability and how stepping away from the need to always “lead” opens space for listening, growth, and deeper connection.
Heather and I talked about the energy shift that happens when you let go of perfection, or the pressure to have all the answers:
“Joy isn’t a reward at the end of the journey,” Heather reminded me. “It’s the fuel that gets you there.”
I shared my own experiences with creative retreats and live conversations — feeling energized, humbled, and reminded that showing up authentically often leads to the richest insights.
Try this: Reflect on one area where you feel pressured to perform or lead. How could leaning into vulnerability actually make the experience richer?
Bonus idea: Take a small action this week that’s just for the joy of it, without any expectation.
Embracing Uncertainty and Rule-Breaking
We also explored the “messy middle” — the uncertainty that comes with growth, creativity, and breaking rules that no longer serve you.
Whether it’s stepping into a new project, a retreat, or just saying yes to curiosity, Heather reminded me that growth often lives in that uncomfortable space.
“Just because you can do it all doesn’t mean you should do it all.”
Try this: Look at one area where you’re following a rule just because “that’s how it’s done.” What would happen if you rewrote it for yourself?
Bonus idea: Journal about what your ideal day, project, or connection would look like if you removed the pressure to perform.
Listen In
This Substack Live was full of gentle nudges:
- Joy is your compass.
- Connection is a creative practice.
- Boundaries and reflection are part of the process.
- Trusting your gut and embracing uncertainty can spark your best ideas.
So whether you’re navigating your own creative projects, curating your circle, or just figuring out how to live with more ease, Heather and I unpacked ideas that remind us to start with joy, trust the process, and lean into what energizes us.
Closing Reflection
What would shift if you let joy lead the way instead of waiting for it?
If that resonates, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Drop a comment, share a reflection, or just sit with the question for a moment.
If you want to explore how leading with joy and authenticity could shape your life or work, I’ve got a few spots open.
Book a free session and we can unpack what’s waiting on the other side of the “rules”.
Transcript
And just like I promised, here's a quick little intro for a great substack live conversation I had with my friend Heather Vickery.
Speaker A:And we talked about my trip to Costa Rica, and she talks about her upcoming retreat in Costa Rica.
Speaker A:And if you liked what you heard here, you can find Heather at brave Heather Vickery on substack.
Speaker A:All right, enjoy.
Speaker B:We're live.
Speaker B:Hi, everybody.
Speaker B:Okay, so this is the first time I have hosted a live with a pal to chat about cool stuff out loud and then share it.
Speaker B:But I think that that's something I really love about substack, is that it's this beautiful space to talk about what you're thinking and feeling and doing and how you're being creative.
Speaker B:And there's something really powerful about doing it out loud.
Speaker B:So I have my friend Kevin with.
Speaker B:Hey, Kevin, how are you?
Speaker A:Uh, oh, I'm doing great.
Speaker A:This is also my first time on substack live, so hello.
Speaker A:No limits, no barriers.
Speaker A:Good to see you.
Speaker B:I have to give this amazing follower all the props because you are my first paid subscriber on substack, and so you have my whole heart and I appreciate you.
Speaker A:Oh, amazing.
Speaker B:I know, right?
Speaker B:And Stephanie.
Speaker B:Grandma's here.
Speaker B:We both know Stephanie.
Speaker B:Hi, Stephanie.
Speaker B:How are you?
Speaker B:Okay, so the reason that I invited you, Kevin, on, to chat with me is, you know, my work is all about knowing, liking, and trusting yourself and then learning to lead from embodied joy, because it changes the way we show up in the world.
Speaker B:It changes the way we interact with people, the way we lead, and it has the positive impact that we actually want.
Speaker B:And it's counterintuitive to what society tells us to do all the time.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I'm suggesting you start with play.
Speaker B:I'm suggesting you start with joy and gratitude and breaking the rules.
Speaker B:And instead of thinking, you have to earn that.
Speaker B:And you, my friend, have really been doing that.
Speaker B:So introduce yourself and tell people a little bit about kind of the very big brave thing that you've recently done.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hey, Frank.
Speaker A:New joiner.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm Kevin, and I host a substack called standout creatives business for authors.
Speaker A:And it's not only for authors, but for any creative person who is looking to really get their word out into the world through marketing website, you know, just your messaging and how you can essentially be your most authentic you and reach your audience and not try to play into the game of, oh, let's figure out how to get as many followers as possible and try to game the system and all that kind of Stuff.
Speaker A:I've also recently done a global zine project which some people may be here for.
Speaker A:That was a very cool project on Substack that we released.
Speaker A:And this weekend, tomorrow and Sunday, I am doing a creativity summit with two other amazing creative people.
Speaker B:And that is.
Speaker B:Can people still register for that?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker B:I'm registered.
Speaker B:I'm excited to check it out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So how can they do that?
Speaker A:It'd be a lot of fun.
Speaker A:Go to summit creativityparties.com.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And I'm guessing is there maybe a link somewhere in your sub stack they find it?
Speaker A:One of my most recent posts is.
Speaker A:But yeah, okay.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:So I try to make it easy on you.
Speaker B:The other thing, though, Kevin, that you can't believe we didn't talk about this, that you did use.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about it.
Speaker B:We'll go through different things, but I think it's what.
Speaker B:I think it's lovely.
Speaker B:And I use the word wild, not because I'm like, how could you do it?
Speaker B:But it is, it felt as your pal, like it was such an easy thing for you to do.
Speaker B:I don't know if that's true, but it feels like such a big, massive thing to do.
Speaker B:Um, Kevin just up and.
Speaker B:And his wife just up and moved from the United States to Costa Rica.
Speaker B:And you kind of didn't have a plan, except that you wanted to go, right?
Speaker A:There was, there was a plan, but it was like a lot of bullet points.
Speaker A:It wasn't really like, oh, let's make a 30 step, you know, business planning and all this stuff.
Speaker A:It was more, our intention is to live a more creative and fulfilling life in the way that we want to.
Speaker A:And Costa Rica gives us the space to be able to do that.
Speaker A:Thanks, Stephanie, for posting that link.
Speaker B:Did you see that?
Speaker B:Hey, Lynn dropped the link to yourself.
Speaker B:Yeah, sorry.
Speaker B:Thanks, Stephanie.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Should be a lot of fun.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But we started really deciding in February.
Speaker A:I talk all about this at least up until, I think a month or so before we leave about my journey.
Speaker A:And I'll be continuing that all the way up into, like, present times.
Speaker A:So it's, it's been a fun thing to write about.
Speaker B:I mean, it's pretty cool.
Speaker B:I have children, four of them, and some of them are still young and in school, but I daydream on a regular basis about moving to another country.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker B:What were your key motivators in.
Speaker B:In moving and what made you pick Costa Rica?
Speaker B:And I'm interested because those of you who follow me and know I'm hosting a retreat in Costa Rica in January and I love Costa Rica, so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A: e on her bachelorette trip in: Speaker A:She's, when she came back, she's like, oh, you're gonna love it, you gotta come.
Speaker A:So I came the very next year blown away too.
Speaker A:Just everything about the place, the nature, the people, just the pace of life, all of that stuff.
Speaker A:And then the very next year, after I went with my wife, I brought my parents with me the following year and we did very similar itinerary and it was just like so amazing here.
Speaker B:That's so cool.
Speaker B:And so what's notably different about.
Speaker B:Because you're still doing the same work, you're still running your business from home, you're still the same person married to the same person.
Speaker B:What's noticeably different about life in Costa Rica?
Speaker A:Well, right now the biggest noticeable thing is that we don't have a car.
Speaker A:So we're literally walking everywhere right now.
Speaker A:And it's less of a problem than you would expect, especially if this first year we're in San Jose, which is the capital, and there is just so much available to us within walking distance that we can do that.
Speaker A:Or if not, there's things like Uber and what a lot of people use here is called Didi.
Speaker A:It's pretty much the same thing as an Uber and that's how we can go.
Speaker A:If it's more than like a 30, 45 minute walk, we'll.
Speaker A:We'll take a, a DD somewhere.
Speaker B:Okay, that's cool.
Speaker B:I did not.
Speaker B:I knew that I took Ubers when I was there, but I didn't know they had their own sort of driver car service.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's something that you realize when you go to different countries.
Speaker A:Like in Asia, there's also no Uber.
Speaker A:They have their own grab and bolt or what they.
Speaker A:Or what we used while we were there.
Speaker B:Well, it's interesting, I follow somebody.
Speaker B:It might be here.
Speaker B:Right here on Substack.
Speaker B:I can't remember.
Speaker B:It's Substack or Blue sky, who's always talking about driving co op in Colorado where it's bucking the, you know, the big corporate approach and it's there, they're sharing in all the profits.
Speaker B:Anything like.
Speaker B:So I wonder if it's anything like that.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:I don't think so.
Speaker A:I think this is like a Australian, it's not a Costa Rican company.
Speaker A:It's like a company that operates out of other countries too.
Speaker A:I don't remember exactly where, but all.
Speaker B:Right, that's kind of cool.
Speaker B:But I love that you did that.
Speaker B:And I'm excited because I'm coming to Costa Rica a couple days early in January before my retreat starts and we're going to get to hang out in person and that's going to be so much fun.
Speaker A:It's weird because you're coming into San Jose.
Speaker B:Yeah, I am coming into San Jose.
Speaker B:And then we're taking a domestic flight from San Jose to Cuepos and then we have about a 45 minute drive.
Speaker B:Because my reclaim your peace retreat is like legit in the middle of the jungle.
Speaker B:And they, I will use the term, they dropped this luxury retreat facility in the middle of the jungle, but they really didn't.
Speaker B:They worked really, really hard to build it in a place and to be very, very eco friendly and eco conscious and really thoughtful about working with the land and being as least disruptive as possible.
Speaker B:It's one of the things that I really liked about the facility and how much they care.
Speaker B:And it's kind of wild for me.
Speaker B:Like, when I was there, I. I don't know what called me to Costa Rica specifically.
Speaker B:I know that I found this venue, found me through a couple of different sources.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:So I'm a 13 spleenic projector in human design.
Speaker B:And I just, my body just knew like, oh, I have to do this.
Speaker B:Like, I have to host this event here.
Speaker B:And my brain was like, but are you sure?
Speaker B:Because you're not really a jungle girl.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're more of a, you know, sipping champagne by the lavender fields in Provence kind of girl.
Speaker B:And I was like, no, I don't know why.
Speaker B:And I hadn't been there and I'd never been to Costa Rica, but I was like, okay, let's do it.
Speaker B:Which was terrifying, Kevin, because I had to sign a very large financial contract with this property to secure it.
Speaker B:And I was like, what am I doing?
Speaker B:But then I went to the space this past March and I'm curious if you have any experience like this or if it's just this sort of oasis that they've built.
Speaker B:But I felt so connected to the land.
Speaker B:I felt.
Speaker B:It was almost like a golden cord came up from the core of the earth and connected through my body into the universe.
Speaker B:Like, I just vibrated with all of that energy.
Speaker B:And despite the jungle noise, and there's quite a bit of it, I felt silent for maybe the first time in my entire life.
Speaker B:And I'm 50.
Speaker B:Like, I was like, I can actually hear myself think.
Speaker B:I can Feel myself think has that.
Speaker B:Is that something you're experiencing being there?
Speaker A:That's definitely something I experienced the very first time that I was here because we went into the mountains where the arena volcano is, and they have hot springs.
Speaker A:And when you're just like, relaxing there and just being in that space, you can just kind of feel like you're more in nature.
Speaker A:Obviously, it's like a resort, but they've decorated it so nicely that it feels like you're in with nature and you're just relaxing and just like, being.
Speaker A:Instead of worrying about whatever it is on the outside that people worry about, you're kind of just, like, taking it all in.
Speaker B:So when I come in, actually the day before we leave for Imoloa, we are staying at a beautiful little boutique hotel out in the mountains, and.
Speaker B:And people have that day to go and do things.
Speaker B:So maybe you can share with me where you went to those hot springs, so that I can send that as a suggestion, because I.
Speaker A:In the northern part of the country.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's so cool.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:And I had somebody say, you know, jungle.
Speaker B:Jungle sounds.
Speaker B:That's interesting.
Speaker B:What is that?
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:It's just that, like, nature is alive.
Speaker B:The sound of.
Speaker B:Of the monkeys and the birds and the bugs and, like.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're everything, like, profound.
Speaker A:I don't remember exactly what percentage, but there's, like.
Speaker A:I think it's either 3 or 6% of all the biodiversity in the world is here.
Speaker A:I don't know where that came from, but apparently there's just some very large number because they've intentionally made this country not to focus on.
Speaker A:You know, they don't actually have, like, a military here, so they use those funds to fund.
Speaker B:I hope we didn't lose you, Kevin.
Speaker A:Frozen.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:You're back.
Speaker B:Though I think maybe.
Speaker B:There you are.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That is so cool.
Speaker B:Stephanie said she's going to go to YouTube and look for jungle noises.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're going to find them and.
Speaker B:And they're real.
Speaker B:But it's pretty cool, actually, to do that.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker B:Kevin froze on me again.
Speaker B:Yeah, the retreat's gonna be amazing for anybody who's interested in coming with.
Speaker B:Oh, I lost Kevin completely.
Speaker B:Let's see if we can get him back.
Speaker B:Because I wanna talk more with Kevin about, you know, what this.
Speaker B:All this means to be creative.
Speaker B:And I feel personally so stressed about marketing and promotion and all of that.
Speaker B:Hey, you're back.
Speaker B:Well, one of the things that I wanted to chat with you about, because I.
Speaker B:And I was saying this when you, when you got kicked out, and I don't know if anybody could hear me or not, I just kept talking because, you know, I wasn't sure if people were there.
Speaker B:But one of the things that I don't care for at all is marketing and promotion.
Speaker B:It feels like it takes away all the joy of doing the business.
Speaker B:But I own my own business and if I don't market and promote, I don't have a business.
Speaker B:So it's stressful and that's kind of your jam.
Speaker B:And so when you talk about creativity, how does that help and what makes what's different about your approach and how can it save me?
Speaker A:I think a lot of people who are like heart focused type of people are thinking about marketing in the wrong manner.
Speaker A:It might be you, it might not be.
Speaker A:But the way that I personally see it that has helped me the most to think about things is to say, who are the people that need to hear my message?
Speaker A:Because I know I can help them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And how, how do I get that out?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's just like, obviously there's a lot of logistical things that go into it and it takes up a lot of time and it feels like it could be a little bit, you know, scammy or whatever.
Speaker A:But if you're doing it with intention and in a way that is helpful for people, I think it's a disservice to not get your message out there as much as you can in a way that you feel is right for you.
Speaker A:So that means different things to different people.
Speaker B:I agree with all of that.
Speaker B:I just find it really exhausting and overwhelming.
Speaker B:Even if I know what I'm sharing is powerful and impactful and I know it inside and out and it shouldn't feel like maybe it's just because I'm a projector, I don't know.
Speaker B:But it's feels hard.
Speaker B:And it's not that I can't do hard things, but I don't want to do them all day, every day.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What, what do you think it is that marketing takes out of you when you try to do it?
Speaker B:Um, keeping up with it is one element.
Speaker B:And, and I'm sure there's a limiting voice.
Speaker B:My subconscious reprogramming training is popping in right now because I.
Speaker B:Doesn't always work.
Speaker B:It doesn't always convert.
Speaker B:And then you're like, well, you've put so much effort into something and so much heart and love, and then it doesn't work.
Speaker B:And then you're like, I could have just read a book that Would have been great.
Speaker B:Like, why am I doing this?
Speaker B:It's exhausting to put that much effort into something and you.
Speaker B:And it doesn't work.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What things have you tried that have worked best for you?
Speaker B:That you found the only thing.
Speaker B:And I, and I say this, so I try to be the kind of entrepreneur and transformation coach that's really, really transparent with everyone who's paying attention.
Speaker B:I don't have all the answers all the time.
Speaker B:I have lots of different.
Speaker B:Oh, no one does try things.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:But I'm not that person who's going to come in and be like, do it just like this.
Speaker B:And it's going to give you these results because everybody's different.
Speaker B:You got to try all sorts of different things.
Speaker B:I have been an entrepreneur for 25 years.
Speaker B:Years.
Speaker B:Half of my life.
Speaker B:I'm 50 years old and I have run successful business this entire time.
Speaker B:And literally the only thing that has ever worked for me is relationship, is conversations and then word of mouth referrals.
Speaker B:And I'll give you a great example, posting my retreat in Costa Rica, the like eight super fans that I have who I love with my whole heart, they signed on immediately.
Speaker B:They were like, if you're doing it, I want to be there.
Speaker B:That's great.
Speaker B:And then it was Crickets Forever, which was a little brutal.
Speaker B:And then a friend saw me post about it on TikTok, somebody that I've co authored books with.
Speaker B:And, you know, she's kind of been out of my loop for a little bit.
Speaker B:She's like, oh, that's great.
Speaker B:Yeah, I want to do that.
Speaker B:And then a former client saw it and said, I want to do it.
Speaker B:But this week, one of my attendees, who is also a former client, got three of her friends to sign up.
Speaker B:That's the only thing I've ever seen be successful, is word of mouth and referral.
Speaker B:So I guess this is all about relationship building, which is what I do.
Speaker B:That is what I do on social media for the most part.
Speaker A:The only thing about that is scaling relationship is very difficult.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:Hence the exhaustion.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I would make it more intentional to reach out to people, you know, that have communities that are aligned with you and have them help you get the message out.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I know you've been doing that a lot, and I think we're right here.
Speaker B:Doing this right now.
Speaker A:That's what I found is the best way, like, for the summit, the best way to do this was either reach out to people myself or have a message and then have other people share your Message for you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which I think has helped a lot.
Speaker B:And, you know, the facility that I'm hosting my retreat at, they put a ton of money into ads, and that's not something that I have done or been able to do.
Speaker B:I'm a single mom of four.
Speaker B:I would love to.
Speaker B:I think that that would make a difference.
Speaker B:You know, I have a community membership that's only $18 a month.
Speaker B:That's never going to make a ton of money, but it could.
Speaker B:If it had, you know, a thousand people in it or 5,000 people in it, that would be amazing.
Speaker B:But I know something like that needs ads, and I don't know, I just haven't done ads.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the only other thing that can help potentially is to work with other people or, you know, have other people help you with.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Either collaborate or you can hire somebody just to do certain things, just to make it so that you don't have to do the things you don't like to do.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's a lot of things I'm assuming you don't like to do in your business.
Speaker A:So just offloading the things and working on the things that work best for you and are intentional and, you know, for sure align with what you're trying to do is the way I would do it.
Speaker B:I. I am a big fan of delegation, folks.
Speaker B:Big, big, big fan.
Speaker B:Just because you can do it all doesn't mean you should do it all.
Speaker B:It doesn't mean you have, nor should.
Speaker A:You, if you can afford to, or, you know, find some way to even do exchanges.
Speaker A:A lot of people do service exchanges where you're helping each other in different ways, and that way you're not necessarily paying somebody, but you're helping each other.
Speaker A:Let's say you wanted me to do your emails and I wanted you to do some, like, coaching stuff.
Speaker A:We could do something like that as an exchange.
Speaker A:So that way we're both getting value out of it, and eventually we're going to build our audiences enough together to.
Speaker B:No, I love that.
Speaker B:I'm a big fan of the barter system.
Speaker B:I think it should be used more than it is.
Speaker B:There are lots of ways to make money.
Speaker B:I remember my very first coach, the.
Speaker B:The person who taught me how to be a coach.
Speaker B:He asked me, we've been working together for, I don't know, six, eight weeks.
Speaker B:And he said, so, Heather, when do you think you can have your first client?
Speaker B:And I was like, I don't know, three months?
Speaker B:And he said, well, I want you to have your first client in A week.
Speaker B:And I was like, what?
Speaker B:And he said, there are lots of ways to get paid.
Speaker B:I want you to think about out of the box ways to get paid and who can you talk to?
Speaker B:And I, I did it.
Speaker B:I had two clients within the next week.
Speaker B:And one was.
Speaker B:She was a guinea pig client.
Speaker B:And I told her that.
Speaker B:And I was transparent.
Speaker B:And I was like, I want your feedback and I want your testimonials.
Speaker B:And another was a trade.
Speaker B:And then it went from there.
Speaker B:And the first paying client that I ever had is.
Speaker B:Is still a friend.
Speaker B:She still comes to my stuff.
Speaker B:She comes to my.
Speaker B:She's local.
Speaker B:She comes to my networking breakfast every month.
Speaker B:And she was like, you changed my life every day.
Speaker B:I'm grateful that I got to work with you because you changed my life.
Speaker B:And that was in the beginning, when I didn't even know a little bit as much as I know right now.
Speaker B:So I think people underestimate that, that value a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think everyone says it and it becomes a cliche, but your.
Speaker A:Your network is your net worth, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's such, Such a.
Speaker A:Like a. I don't like the way it sounds, but it's.
Speaker A:The truth in it is that if you don't.
Speaker A:If the person you're talking to doesn't necessarily need your services themselves, they might know somebody else that does.
Speaker A:Because as many people as you know that can connect you with other people, the more likely you are to find somewhere in this web of people that you know, you know, a connection that makes sense for you.
Speaker B:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker B:Stephanie says it's cheesy, but it seems to be true.
Speaker B:It is true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's more true even than the barter system or making money or whatever.
Speaker B:It's about, like, who fills you.
Speaker B:Who fills you with joy.
Speaker B:Like, who do you enjoy being with?
Speaker B:Who do you.
Speaker B:Who are you grateful and you grow with?
Speaker B:They say you either rise and fall to the calorie of the people you spend your time with, and I curate that.
Speaker B:I'm careful about who I spend my time with and my energy with because it just matters a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's a theory that there's like, there's some circles that go out from the middle.
Speaker A:In the middle, you have the smallest number of people, and that is the people who will do anything, like you're saying, to help you no matter what, so there's no questions asked.
Speaker A:They'll help you.
Speaker A:And then in the ring, outside of that is like, people that you know, but they Won't necessarily jump at the first chance.
Speaker A:You have to kind of work with them a little bit in order to convince them or, you know, to get them to become a person in the center.
Speaker A:And then you have the big circle, which is like social media.
Speaker A:We're just trying to get people to notice you.
Speaker A:So it's taking people from the outer circles and getting them into the inner circles.
Speaker A:Into the inner circles.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I think the only way to do that is to have genuine engagement and conversation.
Speaker B:And so if I, if I'm moved by something that I see on social media, I will always engage or respond.
Speaker B:Because if, if you've worked hard, it's like, it's the same theory.
Speaker B:If I stop to listen to a street musician, I tip them because they're working, they're there working.
Speaker B:And if their work makes me stop and pay attention, then I think they deserve some sort of compensation.
Speaker B:And so on social media, compensation is engagement.
Speaker B:Like, let me, I love this, I heard this.
Speaker B:Let me amplify this.
Speaker B:In fact, I did a live show about that a couple months ago.
Speaker B:How easy it is to be an amplifier if your intentions are.
Speaker A:And it costs you nothing to be an amplifier.
Speaker B:Costs you nothing.
Speaker B:Yeah, no time and very little of it at that.
Speaker B:And I just love to see people win.
Speaker B:Like, I really, really love to see people thrive and win.
Speaker B:It makes me really happy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I think the best way to do your best work is to help other people do their best work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's the only way that you're gonna get.
Speaker A:Convince people to work with you beyond a first initial attempt is if you've done so good, such a good job that they'll be like, oh yeah, it makes, it's a no brainer to work with you again or to do the next thing or to buy your next thing or whatever.
Speaker A: a very popular article called: Speaker A:And that's just like, in order to survive and thrive, all you need is 1,000 people who are really dedicated to what you're doing.
Speaker A:And then you can, every time you're releasing something or making something, they're just right on it.
Speaker A:So how do you expand from that eight person circle of superfans to a thousand people?
Speaker A:Obviously that's hard to scale when you're doing one on one personal relationships.
Speaker A:But that doesn't mean you can't.
Speaker A:In those relationships, you can either sell a lot of things that cost a little bit of money, you can sell a few things that cost a Lot of money.
Speaker A:Or you can do like a mixture.
Speaker A:I do a lot of number of those things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's important to me.
Speaker B:We have a question from Stephanie.
Speaker B:I'm going to ask in just a second.
Speaker B:But for me as a business owner, as a heart centered, conscious leader within my integrity, I have several ways that I offer free support because I want it to be available to everyone.
Speaker B:I have low.
Speaker B:You know, you can get one off Subliminal Audios.
Speaker B:You can join the Spark collector for 18amonth.
Speaker B:Like there's that and then there's middle price, couple hundred kind of thing and then it goes up from there.
Speaker B:So I try to make something that will fit everybody's budget and needs to the best of my ability.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Stephanie says, I agree with Heather, that marketing can be draining.
Speaker B:Kevin, can you give some ideas of like two things that we can do every day to market and, or promote ourselves and then what is the difference between marketing and promotion?
Speaker A:So the things that I would do are the things that you find most enjoyable.
Speaker A:I know that a lot of the times that doesn't make you the money, but if you do it well enough and you help people enough.
Speaker A:Well, I guess it depends on what kind of business you're running.
Speaker A:So Stephanie, you're an artist.
Speaker A:It's a little bit different because you're trying to sell your artwork.
Speaker A:But they main thing is like making those connections deeper in your case with those collectors or people who are interested in buying your photographs.
Speaker A:And how do you do that?
Speaker A:That is both aligned with you and makes sense for them in a way that they want to connect with you.
Speaker A:Marketing versus promotion.
Speaker A:Promotion to me, I don't know what the definitions of each of those are, but promotion sounds to me like a discount or something along those lines.
Speaker B:That's not how I hear the word promotion.
Speaker B:So that's interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I guess there's different definitions of promotion, but in my mind that's what I would think about when.
Speaker A:If I'm trying to distinguish the difference between those, like promotion.
Speaker A:What's the promo code?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Promotion to me just means like, like pushing your stuff out.
Speaker B:But, but I.
Speaker B:But yeah, that's just drawing people in.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Kevin, can you tell folks what is happening at the conference this weekend?
Speaker B:What, what kinds of different things they can experience?
Speaker B:How much of their time is required?
Speaker B:Because that was for me, I don't, I don't work on the weekends.
Speaker B:And creativity isn't necessarily always about work.
Speaker B:But sitting on a summit for Me feels like it's part of my job to expand myself.
Speaker B:But I was like, no, I'm really curious.
Speaker B:I want to do this, but I don't know how much I can show up.
Speaker B:So what can people expect?
Speaker B:What kinds of things will be happening and what's the time commitment?
Speaker A:Oh yeah, so it's gonna be from 1 to 4pm Eastern time.
Speaker A:So that's, I mean 5pm, that's four hours of time.
Speaker A:And I think the biggest difference between what we're doing and what most summits are is we're gonna be doing a lot of interactive things.
Speaker A:So one of the things I'm gonna be doing in both days is like fun activities to get you out of your brain and stop thinking.
Speaker A:Like, oh, it's of kind.
Speaker A:I'm just stuck up here all the time.
Speaker A:How do you get out of that?
Speaker A:What are some activities and ways to kind of break free from the thinking brain and just doing and having fun with it?
Speaker A:And that's another thing that we're going to try to do is just have fun throughout the time and there's going to be networking opportunities so you can meet all the other people.
Speaker A:That's one of the things that happens in live conferences and summits where you get to meet people outside of the sessions, like in the waiting room.
Speaker A:So we're going to try to recreate that kind of thing within the summit itself.
Speaker A:So that way you're not just listening to people talk.
Speaker A:And then other than that there's like going to be tools and resources in order for you to be more creative.
Speaker A:How do you get out of your head?
Speaker A:How do you stop procrastinating all this, these kinds of things and philosophies on how to live a more creative life.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:So obviously being there in person, if you, if you really value the interactive hands on activities and the networking is super important.
Speaker B:If you can't be there in person, is it, is there a replay or are there other ways that you can get the information?
Speaker A:Yeah, there will be a replay and then if you sign up, we will be sending the replay for free for anyone, for everyone.
Speaker A:And if you aren't able to attend, you can see what happens.
Speaker A:Obviously you're going to be missing out on specific connections and stuff like that, which I'm not sure how the main room is going to look during those times.
Speaker A:We might have to cut out some stuff, but I think the biggest thing is you can come in and out if you want to and that you don't have to stay the whole Time.
Speaker A:But the experience that we're trying to create is best if you are coming to as many things as you can and connecting with all the people and doing work that doesn't feel like work.
Speaker A:It's going to be, you know, working on yourself and your creativity, but it's not going to be like, oh, I'm building a business plan, or something like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker B:And I just think anything with creativity.
Speaker B:My friend Rachel, who I co created the deck of Create Brave manifestation cards with several years ago, she had a creativity conference in person.
Speaker B:And each room, one was where you would, you know, make your own coloring pages.
Speaker B:And I did one on gratitude and how you can bring gratitude into creativity.
Speaker B:And it was just such a fun.
Speaker B:And then we closed.
Speaker B:I don't know how you would do this virtually, but we closed.
Speaker B:She had a singer, and we were all in a circle, and she would have us sing, like, follow her, and we'd get louder and quieter and we'd get closer to each other and, like, feel the vibration of people.
Speaker B:It was such a cool experience.
Speaker B:So I think that the reminder that creativity is subjective, that your creativity is gonna look different than somebody else's creativity.
Speaker B:I mean, my podcast, was it Chance is the podcast about embracing opportunity and taking intentional risk for your creative life.
Speaker B:And we interview people from.
Speaker B:The episode we have out right now is with Tad Stromer, who's a historian but has a huge creative following and authors and dancers and, you know, all across the board.
Speaker B:Creativity has to, like.
Speaker B:It can look and feel like so many different things.
Speaker B:You just have to your own ways to tap into it.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:And I love how you help people do that.
Speaker B:Kevin?
Speaker A:Yeah, One interesting thing, you are not able to attend, but Stephanie and Heather are in a podcast collective, feminist podcast collective.
Speaker A:And I just had a session this week where we were trying to help me figure out, since my show is called Standout Creatives, how do I make it more standout and creative than the typical just, you know, solo episode and interviews?
Speaker A:And there are a lot of ideas generated in this that I can play with now that there's, like, so many ideas out in the world.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, wow, there's too many things now.
Speaker A:And I have to take that and kind of pull it down into the thing that makes the most sense for me.
Speaker A:So I think one of the things, especially with this summit, is that you're going to be in this room with so many other creative people in the world, and how do you take ideas that aren't just Your own, but through a collective mind.
Speaker A:Group mind, I think, is often the way that the most and best ideas come out is because you're not spending all of your energy.
Speaker A:You're using the collective mind sourcing.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:I was super bummed.
Speaker B:Yes, I'm super bummed.
Speaker B:I didn't miss your session, but I'm gonna watch the replay because it sounds like it was a really cool room to be in.
Speaker B:And you brought up something I think is really interesting.
Speaker B:In those sorts of scenarios, you do have to set your own boundaries and limits because it would be so easy to just be super overwhelmed and then not do anything.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I don't know, you'll have to tell us what you did, but I think I would be like, okay, let me write all of these down, walk away and come back and pick one or two that I feel really excited about, and the rest can stay.
Speaker B:Like, I can come back to them later, but you can't do everything at once.
Speaker B:How did you handle that?
Speaker A:I am still processing my way through all the suggestions, and I will, at that point figure out what makes the most sense for me.
Speaker A:I have an idea that there's going to be some improv elements in it, but I haven't decided exactly what that looks like yet.
Speaker A:And just having people that have been guests connect with each other or, you know, take a unique look at different things, instead of like an interview with one person, how do we take a roundtable or something like that?
Speaker A:Pull out some of the stuff, do some experiments.
Speaker A:There's just like, all kinds of stuff that you can.
Speaker A:Oh, a roundtable potentially do.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So one of the ideas was to look at a book launch through the lens of different people who worked on a single book.
Speaker A:So what did the publisher say?
Speaker A:What did the editor say?
Speaker A:What did the author say?
Speaker A:What did the illustrator say?
Speaker A:And kind of just approach it, like, how.
Speaker A:How would, if we were doing this from scratch, do it to be the most successful launch that we can have?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:That's fun.
Speaker B:That's really cool.
Speaker B:One of the things that I love about co hosting my podcast was it chances.
Speaker B:Alan and I are so different.
Speaker B:We think differently, we observe differently, and we ask very, very different questions.
Speaker B:And we both love this because I would never have thought of the questions he would ask, and he would never have thought of the questions that I would ask.
Speaker B:And then he.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:The guest will answer that question, and then that brings something interesting to my mind.
Speaker B:And so having that dynamic to play off of is really, really fun.
Speaker B:And it Takes a little of the pressure off, too, to, to always be guiding and leading the conversation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It gives you some opportunity to actually think more about what they're saying, because when you're doing an interview by yourself, you have to think, okay, what is the next thing that happens because of what they said?
Speaker A:But if you're on the sidelines, you get to think, process, and come up with, you know, the best thing that makes sense within the context of the overall conversation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's a lot of fun.
Speaker B:All right, well, Kevin, I want to let you get back.
Speaker B:I know you're prepping for a big summit tomorrow, and maybe you're going to go outside and be in the wonderful weather, although it's warm here, but it's not tropical in Chicago.
Speaker B:But thank you so much for chatting with me.
Speaker B:What do you think of your first Substaff Live?
Speaker A:Oh, it's, it's great.
Speaker A:I love just chatting and seeing people join.
Speaker A:Who?
Speaker A:I didn't expect anybody to join.
Speaker A:I don't know if you did, but, you know, it's always fun to have people come in just to see what you're up to, because we're not, we're not big audience people, so it's, like, always great to see that people are interested to hear what we say.
Speaker B:It is fun.
Speaker B:Stephanie said, great conversation.
Speaker B:We're so glad you were here.
Speaker B:Thanks for engaging, because that does make a difference.
Speaker B:I will tell you just for future reference, I find Substack to be the easiest platform to go live on and have people join and engage.
Speaker B:It makes it so much more fun to show up and say yes, because you feel like you're actually building community with people instead of just, like, talking to yourself on your camera.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Until, until you're like a twitch streamer who has, like, hundreds of people and you can't even read the feed anymore.
Speaker B:I, I, I don't have, I have not had that experience, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, neither have I, but I don't know how people do that.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:All right, well, thanks, everybody for joining.
Speaker B:Thanks, Kevin, for hanging out.
Speaker B:Thanks, everyone, and.
Speaker B:Okay, bye.
