15: Empowering Black and Brown Designers Through Community and Support with Dominique Jones
What if the secret to success in book design isn’t just talent, but community, intention, and breaking through industry barriers?
Dominique Jones is a senior designer at Dutton Penguin Random House and president of Blk + Brwn Book Designers. She turned her passion for graphic design into a powerful movement of representation in the publishing industry.
In this episode, Dominique shares her creative journey, showing how she turned a passion into a mission. She takes us behind the scenes of book design, unpacking the challenges of representation, the power of community, and the art of visual storytelling.
From Passion to Purpose
Since Dominique was a child, she had a passion for books and book cover design. But once she was in the industry, she wasn’t satisfied with her own success. She wanted to help other designers of color get into the industry too.
Through Blk + Brwn Book Designers she was able to create a space for designers of color in an industry that’s often closed off to them. She built something bigger than herself and something that’s reshaping the landscape of book design.
Actionable Insight: Your creative passion can be a pathway to meaningful change. Start by looking for opportunities to make space for others in your field.
Bonus: Spend 10 minutes today researching communities that support diverse creative professionals. The right community can change everything.
Building a Creative Community
Dominique didn’t just succeed on her own. She created Blk + Brwn Book Designers, a group that goes far beyond basic networking. It’s about building genuine relationships that open doors for designers who might not have access to traditional resources.
"We all love graphic design and books," she says. This group isn’t just a space for advice. It’s a home for creatives seeking mentorship and support. It’s about connection, not just business.
Actionable Insight: Community is your greatest asset. Look for groups that align with your values and creative goals. Real connections are everything.
Bonus: Reach out to one person in your creative field this week for a meaningful conversation. You never know where a single connection can lead.
The Realities of Creative Careers
Dominique’s journey shows that creative success isn’t just about raw talent. It’s about resilience. Feedback, rest, and continual growth are crucial elements that helped her along the way.
"Taking breaks is important," she shares. "It helps my brain get a rest."
From internships to the professional world, Dominique’s story is a reminder that creative careers are about learning, adapting, and, most importantly, staying energized.
Actionable Insight: Embrace feedback as a tool for growth. Use criticism to fuel improvement, not discourage you.
Bonus: Create a simple system for collecting and processing constructive feedback in your creative work. It can be a game-changer for growth.
Designing with Purpose
Dominique’s design philosophy goes beyond making things “look good.” It’s about understanding the deeper meaning behind every project. Storytelling, representation, and crafting experiences that resonate with people are all important elements of good design.
Her approach shows that great design doesn’t just communicate. It connects. It’s about creating something that leaves a lasting impact.
Actionable Insight: Your creative work is more than just a product. It’s a form of communication. Bring more intention to your next project.
Bonus: Challenge yourself to add a layer of intentionality to your next creative project. How can you make it more meaningful?
Key Takeaways
- Community can transform individual potential.
- Taking breaks = creative renewal.
- Diversity in design matters. Representation is everything.
- Being intentional drives creative success.
Turning Your Creative Vision into Reality
Dominique didn’t wait for permission. She built her path, one design at a time. Her success isn’t about luck. It’s about persistence, community, and staying true to her vision.
If you’ve been feeling stuck or wondering how to make your mark in the creative world, this is your sign to start.
Want help growing your creative career? Let’s talk.
Book a free strategy session at TheStandoutCreatives.com. Spots are limited, so grab yours before they fill up!
Transcript
I'm a firm believer in just praying and asking for what you want and just pushing yourself also as a human being, with intention.
Speaker A:Knowing what you want, knowing what you want for your lifestyle and really sitting with yourself and asking yourself, can you do this for the rest of your life?
Speaker A:Is this something you feel is necessary to do?
Speaker A:And it's not just about the money, because that's one thing I definitely prayed in.
Speaker A:My prayer was like, I don't want to be at a job that only felt like I was there for the money.
Speaker A:I wanted something that felt like I was doing something that I love to wake up to do every morning, regardless if it was.
Speaker A:If it was free, I would have done it, you know?
Speaker B:Welcome to the Standout Creatives, where making money and creating meaningful work go hand in hand.
Speaker B:You're already passionate about what you create.
Speaker B:Now let's turn that passion into a standout business.
Speaker B:Marketing your work doesn't have to be overwhelming.
Speaker B:It can actually amplify your creativity.
Speaker B:I'm your guide, Kevin Chung, and this podcast is your roadmap to creative business success.
Speaker B:I'll show you how to turn your unique talents into a business that truly represents who you are.
Speaker B:Let's get started.
Speaker B:What if transforming your creative career wasn't just about mastering design skills, but about building community, breaking industry barriers, and turning your passion into a movement of representation?
Speaker B:Dominique Jones isn't just another senior book designer at Dutton.
Speaker B:She's built something incredible that's changing how designers of color see themselves in publishing.
Speaker B:Through black and brown book designers, she's doing way more than designing book covers.
Speaker B:She's creating opportunities for people who've been shut out.
Speaker B:In this episode, we talked about how Dominique turned her creative struggles into an amazing mission of empowerment.
Speaker B:If you ever felt like you don't quite fit in or you're wondering how to turn that thing that makes you different into your secret superpower, this one's for you.
Speaker C:Welcome to another episode of Standout Creatives.
Speaker C:Today I'm on Dominique Jones.
Speaker C:Dominique is a senior designer at Dutton Penguin Random House and the president of Black and Brown Book Designers, a community dedicated to amplifying and supporting Black and Brown creatives in publishing.
Speaker C:After discovering book design late in college, she quickly carved out a space for herself, but realized how few designers of color had the same opportunities.
Speaker C:Determined to change that, she created Black and Brown book designers to foster connection, mentorship, and visibility in the industry, where representation is still rare.
Speaker C:Through her work, Dominique is opening doors for the next generation of book designers to thrive.
Speaker C:That's a Great mission.
Speaker C:Dominique, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got into some of the stuff you're doing right now?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, name is Dominique, born and raised in Brooklyn, and being in the publishing industry still seems so rare in itself.
Speaker A:It's something that most people won't think of as a career opportunity.
Speaker A:Once you're leaving college, you're just looking for, like, design firms or maybe freelancing and so many other avenues.
Speaker A:And so when it came across my.
Speaker A:Like, when it came across, I realized, like, oh, this is an opportunity.
Speaker A:And I actually was lucky enough to do an internship, which opened my door, my eyes even more.
Speaker A:And so I was like, I can literally do this for a living.
Speaker A:Like, this seems to be my calling, a sign from God.
Speaker A:Like, I know this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker A:And so since then, I just continued to kind of, like, lend a helping hand to those behind me, knowing how easy it may have seemed from others hearing my story, but also how difficult it might be for those who are constantly trying, especially in this economy.
Speaker A:And so creating black and brown book design is an opportunity to network, build community, but then also build your way to success and creative development.
Speaker A:Whether you're new to the industry and just don't know about it, or you're already in the industry and connected, but you want to connect more and grow more as a creative.
Speaker A:There's so many opportunities for people to exist in this space because we all love graphic design and books and we just continue to thrive together.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker C:Can you talk a little bit about growing up?
Speaker C:Did you read a lot of books?
Speaker C:Did you like the covers of the books?
Speaker A:Like many people, I did read a lot of books.
Speaker A:I was constant.
Speaker A:Memory was like going to the public library, the book library near my house when I lived on a.
Speaker A:In Can I see in Brooklyn.
Speaker A:I wind up, like, it was like, literally, like two blocks down.
Speaker A:So me and my sister would always go, like, every weekend and just sit there and just, like, admire the books.
Speaker A:We might not take out as many books or take out one or two, but it was just constantly, like, me looking at the covers, skimming through the pages, the smell of a new book kind of thing.
Speaker A:And then when I got to college, I continued doing that by actually going to Barnes and nobles on 14th street, which I love, 14th street for the creative community in itself.
Speaker A:And I would always go there and tell all my friends, oh, let's meet on 14th Street.
Speaker A:Just so I get there an hour early just to skim through the book section and look at the covers, skim through the magazine, take photos, and then just leave afterwards when my friends like, I'm here.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, I'm coming downstairs.
Speaker A:And it was just those little memories always remind me of, like, those moments again.
Speaker A:I'm like, okay, cool.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:It was like a full circle moment, you know, like I was meant to be here.
Speaker A:Like, those are little signs that I didn't notice that was leading me into where I'm about to be, which is now.
Speaker C:That's cool.
Speaker C:Did you.
Speaker C:Do you have a favorite book to cover when you were a kid or any, any point in your life before you started working in?
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker A:I was always fascinated to any, like, almost whatever.
Speaker A:You know how, like they say don't judge a book by its cover, but obviously doing that for work, you do that all the time.
Speaker A:It was those, those books that just grab your attention.
Speaker A:We're just like almost feeling like you just your heart skipped the beat or you lost breath for like a quick second.
Speaker A:It was just either the imagery, the special effects that were on it that was like, whoa, I never seen that before.
Speaker A:The big tight that was on it, the colors that stood out.
Speaker A:It's honestly, every single genre has its own little twist for me that I just, I can't choose a favorite at all.
Speaker A:It's just, just a feeling, you know.
Speaker C:What about any.
Speaker C:Any particular stories that, that you remember?
Speaker A:Oh, stories I remember.
Speaker A:I was so into like the Pretty Little Liar crave before it became the TV show.
Speaker A:Sarah Shepard, all of her books, and was like, oh, these are so good.
Speaker A:And even though those old covers were like, I believe it was like the ones with like a little Barbie doll or something on was like very simple and plain.
Speaker A:But those was just like, wow.
Speaker A:I never knew you could put a Barbie doll on a, you know, cover with like bright colors and type and just the stories and her stories in itself were like, so amazing.
Speaker A:So whatever the COVID looked like, I was like, if it's your shepherd, I'm reading it.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:What, what did you study?
Speaker C:Did you study graphic design, illustration, art or.
Speaker A:I studied graphic design, bachelor's degree.
Speaker A:I went to Mercy College, which is now called Mercy University.
Speaker A:And there was a small art department.
Speaker A:Everybody knew, everybody rotated professors.
Speaker A:But I loved the school because it was very community based.
Speaker A:Everyone was there to help watch you succeed.
Speaker A:The students were helpful regardless of what tier level you was at.
Speaker A:And yeah, it was just very nice.
Speaker C:It's so interesting because that's like the opposite of the college I went to, which had like 40,000 undergraduate students at any time.
Speaker C:So I think when I was walking during graduation, it was like a few thousand people who are walking.
Speaker C:I'm like, oh, my gosh, I have to wait so long to.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:My class was like, what?
Speaker A:Probably like less than 10 of us in that, like, graphic design department walked together.
Speaker A:We were like, yeah, we did this.
Speaker C:That's really cool.
Speaker A:It was nice.
Speaker C:Do you still keep in touch with any of the.
Speaker A:We do.
Speaker A:We all stay connected over social media.
Speaker A:But then it's like, I have my good one friend who we're still connected to today.
Speaker A:So we talk a little bit more frequently than other classmates.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Do you think there's an importance in the.
Speaker C:Well, obviously you do, but, like, what was the importance of community when you were in the college program?
Speaker A:Community.
Speaker A:The points of community in college, like, feedback.
Speaker A:I mean, as a designer and a creative, you're always gonna need that.
Speaker A:That sense of feedback, regardless of that critical critique that you might not like.
Speaker A:You know, it builds you to have a tough skin to kind of take it, you know, not take things with a grain of salt kind of thing, or take things with a grain of salt and just kind of improve your eye, your vision creatively, and then it's just a way to then do the same for others and you get to see and train your eye and like, okay, I see why they did what they did, and just a way to just build yourself up.
Speaker A:And sometimes we always need someone to just talk to about certain things that we might not be good at.
Speaker A:Because when you build community, you're helping not only yourself, you're helping each other.
Speaker A:And so keeping that in mind is always helpful, even today.
Speaker C:I think one of the things that you learn when you're first starting ielts and anything is that you're going to be very bad at, no matter what it is.
Speaker C:It's like when you first start, you know what looks good if you study it a lot.
Speaker C:But being able to do it yourself is very difficult until you.
Speaker C:You get the practice in, I think.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, it takes.
Speaker A:Takes time.
Speaker A:It took me time to get where I am and still continue.
Speaker A:Like I always tell people, even though I'm where I am today, that doesn't mean I don't make mistakes.
Speaker A:Like, I'm always learning.
Speaker A:I'm always challenging myself to try new things.
Speaker A:And so there's going to be bumps in the road regardless.
Speaker A:But you just make sure you don't take that too literal and continue to push yourself to be better.
Speaker A:Because, of course, there's people behind or in Front of me, who are way better making great covers.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker A:Something I possibly probably can't do with my creative mind.
Speaker A:But I have my own style and I have what works for me.
Speaker A:And so you shouldn't really compare yourself or try not to compare yourself.
Speaker A:When it comes to others, we're kind of root for them at the same time and say, okay, next time I could try to think a little bit more differently and push something out there, because all the books we work on is very different.
Speaker A:So you're always going to have a different outcome regardless of what, you know, you work on.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think the importance is knowing yourself and what you're going for versus what other people are doing.
Speaker C:Because the people who want to hire you are not the same people that want to hire them.
Speaker C:They're going to hire you because they like you or your style and not because they like the other person.
Speaker C:Maybe they do, but they chose you because I think their connection is stronger.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:So true.
Speaker C:And I think one of the other things is just to.
Speaker C:To be able to take in feedback.
Speaker C:I think that's especially something you learn in college early on is just to know that the.
Speaker C:The work is not you and they're not telling you you're a bad person.
Speaker C:If your design is not up to par, it's that your art could use a little bit of work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:That's so true.
Speaker C:Do you remember any instances of somebody giving you critical feedback and what your state was or if you took it too hard or something?
Speaker A:I probably.
Speaker A:I remember most of the feelings that I felt more.
Speaker A:So I can't remember maybe the project itself.
Speaker A:I remember those moments of getting feedback and being like, you know, it's not really there yet.
Speaker A:Like, what do you mean it's not there yet?
Speaker C:That's the worst.
Speaker C:Because you want to know what it is.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like just.
Speaker A:Just rework it a little bit more.
Speaker A:Take another look.
Speaker A:I'm looking at it and I don't see what you see.
Speaker A:It was that constant feeling of like, almost feel like I'm failing, but I had to take a step back and then just be like, okay, try to look at refresh eyes.
Speaker A:Print it out.
Speaker A:Because when you print things and versus looking on a computer, you're going to see different things.
Speaker A:You're going to see things are more to the left, more to the right.
Speaker A:Whatever it may be, something's going to stick out when you look at it in a different.
Speaker A:And so trying those methods did help over time.
Speaker A:Or even just again asking a friend, okay, what do you think she's.
Speaker A:She sees that I don't see because, you know, it's not making sense.
Speaker A:And so sometimes that's helpful too.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So anyone that can help at least give you a little bit of an idea is definitely helpful.
Speaker C:Because I think when you're working on something too long, you can't see anything.
Speaker C:It's just, you're like blind to every single detail because you've been looking at it and working on it for so long.
Speaker C:You're like, I don't know what, what this is anymore.
Speaker C:It's just, what, done Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, I don't see nothing wrong with it.
Speaker A:Why isn't it working?
Speaker A:And it's like that one little thing.
Speaker A:You're like, okay.
Speaker C:And then I think another thing is like, just taking breaks is super critical when you're doing any sort of creative work.
Speaker A:Because it's important.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's important to take a break.
Speaker A:There's been times of like, burnout.
Speaker A:There's been times of just.
Speaker A:I would also say the other side of that too is also.
Speaker A:Procrastination is another.
Speaker A:I find myself in moments where I'm like, I'll think like, oh, this cover is going to be easy.
Speaker A:I already have the idea in my mind of what I wanted to.
Speaker A:I'm just, I'm a wait.
Speaker A:And then I wait and it's like the night before.
Speaker A:And then I'm like panicking.
Speaker A:The rush to get it.
Speaker A:I'm like, why none of these images are working?
Speaker A:It's like, because I waited because I thought that I could get it done as fast as possible, but no procrastination was there.
Speaker A:And then the moment of like, burnout.
Speaker A: already,: Speaker A:And you're still working day on, day out.
Speaker A:And it's like you barely remember what the sun looks like.
Speaker A:Those are moments when you really gotta take a break.
Speaker A:Because it, it does something to your brain when you don't take a break.
Speaker A:You just don't see things.
Speaker A:You can't think creatively.
Speaker A:And so when you allow yourself to have that break, you almost like a nice fresh air where you, like, okay, you see things a little bit differently.
Speaker A:You just feel more alive than to feel like a robot just sitting in front of the computer day in and day out.
Speaker A:So taking breaks is important.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think.
Speaker C:I mean, because people were not meant to evolutionarily be doing some sort of creative work.
Speaker C:So it's like sometimes it's just we're not built to do it, work on something for more than a few hours a day.
Speaker C:We're meant to work on it a few hours at a time.
Speaker C:Take a break, because you have to go when you're in the wild.
Speaker C:Before we had civilization, we're hunting and stuff.
Speaker C:We weren't really being creative all the time.
Speaker C:We, we took breaks to be creative.
Speaker C:But since that was the way we evolved, I think we're, we're not meant to be looking at anything longer than a few hours.
Speaker C:Which is why I think just the way that society has set up the work schedules kind of backwards because I don't think at least as a creative person.
Speaker C:And actually in most industries it's still something where we weren't meant to be doing something for eight hours in a row every day.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now I remember when some places were saying, oh, we're gonna do what, a four day work week as an option.
Speaker A:I was like, oh yeah, that'd be nice.
Speaker A:You know, but certain in this certain industries or even corporate places are just like, no, we're gonna stick to Friday work week.
Speaker A:I'm like, honestly, I actually do that like every March I take off because my doesn't have any holidays.
Speaker A:So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take off every Friday in March and that's gonna be my four day weekend.
Speaker A:And heck yeah, I enjoy it because it's the best time ever just to.
Speaker A:I feel.
Speaker A:You feel like you work more like someone, you push yourself more within those four days.
Speaker A:So then when that weekend comes, you're like, oh, I can relax.
Speaker A:I can do what I want to.
Speaker A:I could do nothing for the whole weekend and have a great weekend.
Speaker A:You know, you don't have to look for that two day weekend.
Speaker A:Saturday, Sunday feels like one day, you know, so it's nice.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then it's like you feel more refreshed because you have time to take a break.
Speaker C:And when you come back in, you can get to it faster because you're, you know, you have stuff to get done.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Can you talk about getting your internship?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So my internship, I like to tell people.
Speaker A:Well, I'll tell you a long story.
Speaker A:So my internship was senior year of college.
Speaker A:I prior to that actually I did a bunch of internships.
Speaker A:And after trying them all, I was like, nothing feels right.
Speaker A:I want something that feels like home, something that feels like I'm meant to be doing this.
Speaker A:And so I constantly prayed about it and then little behold.
Speaker A:When it was my senior project, we had like senior night Senior show kind of thing.
Speaker A:And so people from all over come and see it.
Speaker A:And I remember the day after, I got an email, which I thought was a spam, and someone from the bar was like, hey, you know, someone recommended you.
Speaker A:You should apply for this internship.
Speaker A:I'm like, I want to do an internship this year because I wanted to enjoy my summer.
Speaker A:Every other summer for the past three years, I've been doing internships.
Speaker A:I don't want to do anything.
Speaker A:I was like, you know what?
Speaker A:Let me just apply.
Speaker A:What's going to happen?
Speaker A:Little Behold.
Speaker A:I got it.
Speaker A:And they were like, okay, cool.
Speaker A:You're going to come in on this day.
Speaker A:And this time I'm like, fine, whatever.
Speaker A:I'll just do it with no.
Speaker A:Just, like, no care in the world.
Speaker A:I'm just going to wing it, whatever the case is.
Speaker A:Brought my thesis project.
Speaker A:Talk their ears off about it.
Speaker A:And then after that, they were like, okay, we got, like, two other people we're going to interview.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:But for some reason, when I walked in that day, it was like, it felt like I've been there before.
Speaker A:Like, it felt warm, like a home feeling.
Speaker A:But I couldn't pinpoint what it was in that moment.
Speaker A:So after that, I was like, okay, cool, I'll go home.
Speaker A:The week after, I got an email again that said, oh, you got it.
Speaker A:You're going to be in the internship for the summer.
Speaker A:I was like, man, I really got it.
Speaker A:Like, I was tight, but I was also happy at the same time.
Speaker A:Like, you know what it is, what it is?
Speaker A:It's New York money.
Speaker A:They pay us a couple, and I get to, like, experience alone and meet new people.
Speaker A:It's going to be whatever.
Speaker A:I'll be in and out the door, no problem.
Speaker A:The day of the internship, the first day I arrived to go to the front test to get my id, and then all of a sudden, I felt this, like, everything around me went radio silence.
Speaker A:And I was like, this is weird.
Speaker A:And for some reason, I felt this voice in, like, this warm feeling of, like, God telling me, like, you made it.
Speaker A:You don't have to look anymore.
Speaker A:This is it.
Speaker A:And I was like, okay, really don't believe you, but I'm gonna do whatever.
Speaker A:For some reason, I just had this biggest smile on my face from day in and day out, going into this internship, like, I'ma be here.
Speaker A:I'ma stay.
Speaker A:And, like, just lollygagging away and everything around, just learning and absorbing so much information.
Speaker A:I was like, oh, this is it.
Speaker A:This is my life.
Speaker A:I'm gonna be Here for X, Y and Z.
Speaker A:I was just so happy and just being like, oh, this is my home.
Speaker A:And then my last week there, I was like, okay, we're like two days left before the last day this internship is over.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I didn't hear anything.
Speaker A:So am I being played at this point?
Speaker A:And I'm like praying to God of like, please let me get something.
Speaker A:And then right before the last hour or so, my current boss, he emailed me and says, oh, there's a part time position.
Speaker A:Would you take it?
Speaker A:I'm like, yes, you're about to tell me what it was.
Speaker A:I don't care if it was a design assistant, whatever it was.
Speaker A:I just wanted to be in this place that felt like this is my calling.
Speaker A:And since then I've been with the same team and same imprint and continue to thrive.
Speaker A:And always, for some strange reason, I'm always having these full circle moments of working on projects that I've used to.
Speaker A:The books that I used to read when I was younger, like Sarah Shepard, who worked on Pretty O Liars, I did, I think one or two of her books.
Speaker A:And I was like, this is a full circle moment.
Speaker A:And just working on, you know, Raisin in the sun, what I used to read in school, those little moments of like, wow, like this is, this is what I'm supposed to be doing for the rest of my life.
Speaker A:And it feels like home, you know, so that's, that's my long winded story of how the internship got to this.
Speaker C:Moment that's so interesting.
Speaker C:What do you think it was that.
Speaker C:That made you have that feeling?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I think honestly, prayer.
Speaker A:I'm a Christian, so I'm a firm believer.
Speaker A:And just praying and asking for what you want and just pushing yourself also as a human being of.
Speaker A:With intention, knowing what you want, knowing what you want for your lifestyle, and really sitting with yourself and asking yourself, can you do this for the rest of your life?
Speaker A:Is this something you feel is necessary to do?
Speaker A:And it's not just about the money, because that's one thing I definitely prayed in.
Speaker A:My prayer was like, I don't want to be at a job that only felt like I was there for the money.
Speaker A:I wanted something that felt like I was doing something that I love to wake up to do every morning, regardless if it was, if it was free, I would have done it, you know.
Speaker A:And so when you really sit with yourself and find out what you really want to do, it'll come to you.
Speaker A:And sometimes we're already doing the work that we are set to be doing, but we don't have that time to sit down and really think about it.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I think sometimes it's just life leads us somewhere and it just fits and it could just be luck, you know, some.
Speaker C:Some things are just luck and you, you make it the best that you can, but then sometimes it's like a perfect match like you found, which is amazing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:What is it about the team there that that makes it a great place to work?
Speaker A:I'm blessed to have a great team who's very helpful and willing to lend a helping hand when needed.
Speaker A:Sometimes there's projects where I'm like, I'm just not getting it.
Speaker A:It's not making any sense.
Speaker A:Or sometimes we're all like, hey, can everybody hop on this one project like the covers that we showed previously?
Speaker A:It's just not working.
Speaker A:We just need everyone's support and everyone is willing to hop on and take that leap and help out even when people are absent, take on people's projects and help them out.
Speaker A:And so it's that sense of community and support that's there and I think that's truly important to have.
Speaker A:And feeling like you're being seen and heard, that's another thing.
Speaker A:So that way, you know, like people also willing to advocate for you when you're not, you're not coming from the same background as them or don't feel like you have the same access as them.
Speaker A:They're willing to support you in that too.
Speaker A:That's another thing that's important.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, those are all parts of a great team.
Speaker C:And the people who don't have those things, you, you know why that things aren't working?
Speaker C:It's because you don't have all those elements of support in commun.
Speaker C:Community and like just people supporting each other, which is what makes a good team.
Speaker C:And sometimes teams fall apart because they don't have that sort of, you know, connection to each other.
Speaker C:How does it.
Speaker C:What is the process for somebody choosing you to be the book designer?
Speaker C:Is it delegated to you?
Speaker C:Is it.
Speaker C:They choose what style they like.
Speaker A:And so usually it could go multiple ways.
Speaker A:So like from an in house perspective, when we get a list of titles for the season, my team works.
Speaker A:If we're like, we're like, hey, I want to work on this title.
Speaker A:This title seems interesting.
Speaker A:Here's my, for example, top five titles.
Speaker A:It's usually more than that.
Speaker A:But like for example, and then get the titles and then I'm able to work on it myself.
Speaker A:Or if I feel like based on the editor and author's response to their cover of what they want it to look like.
Speaker A:This more likely can fit someone who's like an illustrator.
Speaker A:And I'm not good at illustration sometimes, so I'll give it to someone else who's good and has a specific style.
Speaker A:They'll prove if they want that specific illustrator, then hand it off to them to work on it.
Speaker A:And so it's like now you're doing part collaboration, part independent work at the same time.
Speaker A:So you're able to also broaden your scope of different people to hire in and out.
Speaker A:And then there's times where, for the freelancer side, when I'm not like outside of my 9 to 5, people would reach out to me based upon a specific style or like, they see a cover on my website that they really like and they want something to mimic off of that or use that big energy that, you know, this cover specifically that they pointed out uses in that sense.
Speaker A:Or they just feel like I'm a great fit for trying out this project based upon like my portfolio in itself overall.
Speaker A:So it depends on what it is.
Speaker A:But generally they're always looking for like, each book has a story and each book needs a specific designer or illustrator based upon that style that needs to be told in that specific way.
Speaker C:So do you usually get to read, do you get to read the book before?
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:I mean, that's how we design.
Speaker A:I mean, there are sometimes where we don't read, but 9 out of 10 times I'm reading the book, whether it's the first couple 30 pages that they give of, like, hey, we don't have much, but this is what we got to read.
Speaker A:So far the manuscript is still being worked on.
Speaker A:It's like, okay, cool.
Speaker A:And other times it's like, you know, the 300 and something pages already stacked and ready to go and I'm like skimming through every single page to get as much information as possible.
Speaker A:Or sometimes like with memoirs, nine out of ten times they're like, you know, celebrities and there's like photo shoots and stuff like that.
Speaker A:So I don't have time to really read it unless they want to point out something like specific based upon their childhood and use little elements that way.
Speaker A:Then sometimes that might play a part in reading something.
Speaker A:But yeah, each one is different.
Speaker A:But generally, yeah, we're reading.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, it makes the most sense to know as much as you possibly can.
Speaker C:I guess it depends on your workload, how many books you can read.
Speaker C:Because that obviously takes time too.
Speaker C:So it's like, how much time do.
Speaker A:You have to dedicate reader?
Speaker A:I like to enjoy.
Speaker A:And that's the thing too.
Speaker A:When you're in the industry, you have to learn how to read differently.
Speaker A:You can't read as an average reader and just enjoy the book.
Speaker A:You have to read and like, okay, what am I going to pinpoint this?
Speaker A:This scene right here is pinning something down that I could use imagery for in some way.
Speaker A:You have to really think and read differently at the same time.
Speaker A:And it took me a while to understand how to do that because I was so used to just reading a story and be like, wow, this is great, or I didn't like it.
Speaker A:And so when it came to work, I was like, oh, I have to read, highlight whatever it is that helps me in my process.
Speaker A:I have to figure that out for myself.
Speaker C:Like a moment or a feeling within the book that you.
Speaker C:You found particularly interesting.
Speaker C:So do you.
Speaker C:Do you pitch multiple ideas or do you.
Speaker A:Yes, that's important to.
Speaker A:We call them like, like compositions in some sense.
Speaker A:So, like, I'll try one that's maybe like type focus, one with imagery, one with image and type, one with obscure type, one with, I don't know, maybe illustration to it, little elements around it.
Speaker A:So you're trying different things that make sense to the story and try the best to kind of put that voice, bring that voice out.
Speaker A:And so trying different things is very helpful.
Speaker C:And when you're working with somebody as a freelancer, do you.
Speaker C:Do they give you just the idea of what they're looking for?
Speaker C:Do they give you parts of stuff to read or how does that work?
Speaker A:Usually, whenever.
Speaker A:So, like, for example, I was working with this past season with an illustrator, and so it was like a rom com kind of book, can't spill much tea.
Speaker A:But what we did was the author and agent came with like, oh, this is a character description.
Speaker A:They put like, you know, images of models of like, I want the character to like this, she wears glasses and this and that.
Speaker A:And then the male character looks like this tall, muscular, black hair, nice, you know, nice outfit, wearing, whatever the case is, every down to the T.
Speaker A:And then I'll take that information and be like, okay, give it to the illustrator.
Speaker A:This is what they want.
Speaker A:This is the vibe they're going for.
Speaker A:And the illustrator would do her thing or his thing and just work on it.
Speaker A:And from there they send about a couple of sketches.
Speaker A:We usually say a good three, sometimes five.
Speaker A:Some of them send like a bunch sometimes, which is helpful.
Speaker A:To kind of stare in a direction.
Speaker A:And then those will really be rough sketches sometimes.
Speaker A:And then I would then, at that point, take the sketches and then work on it and add.
Speaker A:Sometimes I'll add some color if it's needed, to kind of show or emphasize what it is.
Speaker A:But I always, at the end of the presentation, show the illustrator's work so that they can remember this is what the end result is going to look like.
Speaker A:And I would just add onto those sketches, like, some typeface options.
Speaker A:Maybe I'll letter some things, or sometime, if they're a good letter, we'll say, hey, can you throw in some lettering options too?
Speaker A:And then we can montage things and just make it look cohesive.
Speaker A:So then that way the team has a big scope of options to look at.
Speaker A:They'll choose which ones they want to send through the author.
Speaker A:Then the author would come back with feedback, and then we'll move on to the next step of like, okay, they really like this.
Speaker A:Let's move on to the next step, which is color.
Speaker A:And they'll add color or finalize small little details until it's good to go.
Speaker C:Do you remember the moment you first saw one of your book designs, like, on a shelf?
Speaker A:I remember because it.
Speaker A: It was sucked because it was: Speaker C:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:And I was waiting to go into a bookstore.
Speaker A:So my first book I ever worked on that got published.
Speaker A:I actually got it mailed to me because, you know, things were already.
Speaker A:Stores were closed.
Speaker A:It was like, you know, it's cute.
Speaker A:It was nice little feeling.
Speaker A:But my first.
Speaker A:My first book in the bookstore was probably like my third or fourth book by that point that I've worked on, because we work a year in advance, so it was like prior season.
Speaker A:And so seeing that in a bookstore, I remember taking a photo and my whole family came, like, we all went into the bookstore together looking for this book, and we're like, where is.
Speaker A:Excuse me, do you have this?
Speaker A:And we're like, what aisle?
Speaker A:And we're like, all walking together like little ducks.
Speaker A:And then finally found the book.
Speaker A:And I'm like, modeling with the book and we're all taking photos.
Speaker A:It was just a little nice moment, especially experiencing that with my family at the same time.
Speaker A:But even now, every time I walk by a bookstore, I'm, like, looking to see what covers that are on the shelves, which one hit the front row or just roaming around.
Speaker A:And it's nice to just be like, wow, like, that's something I did, you know?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's very interesting to be A part of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Something out in the world that a lot of people see because most people don't get the opportunity.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's funny because, like, even going into the bookstores now, I'm like, oh, I know who designed that.
Speaker A:I know who designed that before even looking at the credit because, like, you would just know everyone's style.
Speaker A:Sometimes you're like.
Speaker A:Or be surprised that, oh, so.
Speaker A:And so did this.
Speaker A:Like, oh, that's nice.
Speaker A:You know, so it's.
Speaker A:It's cool.
Speaker C:So there's a strong sense of community.
Speaker C:Is it within your.
Speaker C:Your company or is it just throughout anybody?
Speaker A:Like the industry in itself, publishing seems very big, but it's also very small, especially in the design, you know, sector.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Everyone knows everybody.
Speaker A:Someone who used to work with somebody, used to be someone's art director.
Speaker A:And so you're always in full circle of connecting with so many from years to come, new, new faces and old faces.
Speaker A:And it's always nice to know, you know, and see people's work from all over.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:What is your favorite style to work with?
Speaker A:I like being on the computer, like, digitally.
Speaker A:But there's moments where I'm like.
Speaker A:I like to just have that moment to step away from the computer and really just letter things or just play with paint or markers, whatever it is.
Speaker A:But I say digitally, sometimes.
Speaker A:It's usually best just because it seems faster.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:How hard is it to translate something that you do physically onto the.
Speaker A:It's not that hard.
Speaker A:You just gotta have a good scanner, get it at the highest dpi, and then make sure you're good to go.
Speaker A:We usually do, like 600 SL resolution.
Speaker A:So when you can scale it big or make it smaller, it doesn't really change in itself.
Speaker A:It'll get, like, pixelated.
Speaker A:Or sometimes you just try new things just to kind of, you know, make it work.
Speaker A:Photograph.
Speaker A:I used to.
Speaker A:I did a couple of projects before where I would photograph that, like, object and then, you know, put it into Photoshop and play with the colors and make sure the shadows was good.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker C:Do you.
Speaker C:Do you do anything else not book design related to boost your creativity?
Speaker C:So something outside of actual designing of.
Speaker A:Books, like watching tv, I think, doing, like.
Speaker A:Honestly, I haven't found a creative outlet yet.
Speaker A:I want to get into, like.
Speaker A:What is it called?
Speaker A:Lino.
Speaker A:Linocut, I think it's called.
Speaker A:Or nanograph.
Speaker C:Oh, I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, like the silk press thing.
Speaker A:I want to get into that one day.
Speaker A:But creatively, honestly, I haven't found that yet.
Speaker A:But as of now, I just watch TV or eat ice cream or.
Speaker A:That's not really creative because I feel like it helps me think differently and helps my brain get a rest, you know.
Speaker A:So it's very helpful.
Speaker C:Do you, have you ever drawn inspiration from like a moment watching tv?
Speaker A:There, there are moments sometimes where I am watching TV and I'm like, oh, wait, this is, this is the moment that I could use this creative object for something.
Speaker A:And it's, it's very helpful at times.
Speaker A:Especially when I was working with a lot of like thriller and suspense novels, I would watch like movies that were in that same vein, Blake watching and like, oh, that's it right there.
Speaker A:The kitchen scene.
Speaker A:Something about it that can really spark an idea.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think to having as many like creative inputs is very important as a creative person.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So that way you can draw inspiration from pretty much anything as long as you're observant enough and you have the ability to like, capture that thought as like something that you can bring towards your work.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah, no, that's true.
Speaker C:Can you talk about the black and Brown book designers group?
Speaker A: designers started from around: Speaker A:I realized the lack of diversity because I couldn't find people that look like me in design.
Speaker A:Everybody I met was like editorial.
Speaker A:And so like, it got me upset because I was like, I know there's people out there who are graphic designers.
Speaker A:I want to talk about kerning, I want to talk about type and color and like special effects.
Speaker A:But there just wasn't anyone else besides my team, which I'm grateful for.
Speaker A:But I just knew there was such a weird gap that was missing.
Speaker A: And so from there, around: Speaker A:It was just like, that was a moment that woke me up and was like, I'm gonna do something because it's much needed.
Speaker A:And so when I opened up the space, it became a Instagram account, then turned into a website and now it's formed, well, forming into becoming a 501c3 non profit.
Speaker A:And so with that it's just continuing to do what I needed was find community, have community, but also gain access and resources to learn and adapt into the publishing industry.
Speaker A:And so we have workshops, programs, discussions, networking events, all dedicated to graphic design and books.
Speaker A:And so teaching people how to design, talking about design, anything and everything.
Speaker A:It's what's needed.
Speaker A:And so we just continue to advocate for one another and push that through and hopefully change the publishing industry one person at a time.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think every movement starts with one person, obviously.
Speaker C:And then obviously it grows from there.
Speaker C:How did you grow your the group or the program?
Speaker A:So for a while it was myself just doing the work after my 9 to 5.
Speaker A:And then at some point I was like, I need help.
Speaker A:And so I just generally ask like, hey, who wants to help out and volunteer?
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:So when you have a mission that people stand for and believe in, they willing to help you out too.
Speaker A:And so I'm very grateful for all the volunteers from past and present and future who continue to help support, grow the programs into what it is.
Speaker A:We constantly are thinking of new and innovative ways to gain community and access and just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:How much time do you dedicate to it?
Speaker A:It's probably too much time.
Speaker A:Remember when we were saying, like, give ourselves a break?
Speaker A:That's not me.
Speaker A:I'm learning how to do that this year.
Speaker A:So honestly, it takes a lot.
Speaker A:I find myself working on it way too many times.
Speaker A:But it just goes to show, like, I have a passion for it and I'm willing to help see it through to the best that it needs to be and always perfecting every little thing.
Speaker A:But giving myself a break is really needed for myself this year.
Speaker A:And putting calendar dates of like, only on this day and this day is why I'm working on it and really stick to it.
Speaker A:Slowly but surely getting there.
Speaker C:When you started, you were doing all the work or how early did you bring people in?
Speaker C:Because I think one of the hard.
Speaker A:Things, it was a hot minute.
Speaker A:It was like I was doing this probably for like almost two, three years by myself.
Speaker A: ed for like five years, since: Speaker A:So, yeah, I was doing it all by myself.
Speaker A:And so there a little bit here and there.
Speaker A:In like the second, third year, there were like a few people that were helping.
Speaker A:But it was hard for me to give work to help, like, to other people because I was like, oh, I'll do it.
Speaker A:You know, it'd just be easy.
Speaker A:And so then I had to really sit with myself and was like, no, I need help because I can't do this alone.
Speaker A:And so when, you know, because you just have this hard time sometimes giving something that you built away and it's not like you're really giving it away, it's more so you just, you know, helping get involved.
Speaker A:But people aren't going to put in the same effort as you do.
Speaker A:So then you find yourself falling back sometimes and being like, I'll just do it myself.
Speaker A:And So I really have to be like, okay, who do I really trust and value their input to really help me see this through?
Speaker A:And so what I give everyone on my team grace of knowing, like, life happens, give ourselves a break, even though I don't, and, you know, we'll get it done.
Speaker A:And so a lot of learning curves and continuing to just be grateful of the support that I've gotten so far and still do.
Speaker C:Do you have very specific.
Speaker C:Because you're.
Speaker C:Well, unwillingness to let go early was very difficult.
Speaker C:Did you have to, like, explain in detail what you thought the vision should be, or was it more of a collaborative?
Speaker A:It was really.
Speaker A:It really explaining sometimes.
Speaker A:But at the same time, I also make sure it's very collaborative.
Speaker A:Like, I allow people, I tell everyone on my team, like, if you have an event in mind and you want to see it through, so be it.
Speaker A:As long as it fits in line with the organization and what we stand for.
Speaker A:I can't see why I would say no, you know, so it's.
Speaker A:I allow people to have a voice, and that's what I want people to do is know, like, their voice matters.
Speaker A:And this community isn't just built by me, for me, it's built for us, by us.
Speaker A:And so that's how I continue to put that through.
Speaker A:Every time we have an event or someone's willing to volunteer their time, it's like your voice matters.
Speaker A:So put in what you want to see and you do it.
Speaker C:I think one of the things that almost everybody wishes is that they would have had somebody to show them what is possible.
Speaker C:And I think it's great that you've built this thing where you're building the bridge between your generation and the next set of people to come up, which is always like, an amazing feeling because it's something that you would have wanted when you were starting out, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, and I still do.
Speaker A:Sometimes there's moments where I was like, man, I need community.
Speaker A:And I'll just hit everybody up like, hey, you guys want happy hour?
Speaker A:And like, oh, I'm like, hey, let's have a happy hour.
Speaker A:Because I need a happy hour right now.
Speaker A:You know, I need a vet.
Speaker A:And so, like, having that community, it's very helpful.
Speaker C:Where do you.
Speaker C:How do you pitch people?
Speaker C:I guess libraries is probably a good place, but where else do you, like, present through the group?
Speaker A:Libraries is definitely one and pulling a plug.
Speaker A:We have our library.
Speaker A:We have a library collaboration coming up with the New York Public Library, and we're going to be at two branches, one in Manhattan and one in the Bronx actually tomorrow, and then one the following weekend and hopefully more in the future.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, pitching to them is usually like, as long as we or any type of organization or brand, it's more like we look at the value of what they stand for and who their community is and make sure we all align and just put that at the forefront.
Speaker A:Because we don't want to partner with people who just don't believe in the same thing we do.
Speaker A:And so that's the main important thing.
Speaker A:Whenever we're looking for collaborations or sponsors, anybody who's willing to just collab with us at any level, we're just always looking for that.
Speaker A:And then the intention behind.
Speaker A:Are you willing to put in 100% in this collaboration as much as we are?
Speaker A:Because we don't need a 50, 25 or, you know, 125 of effort being put in.
Speaker A:We want to make sure we all are on the same page, communicating and building that strong, that strong connection, not only just for the moment, but even long term.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that's with any, any sort of partnership, it's always important that both sides of the equation are fully committed to the idea.
Speaker C:And sometimes when you get a no, is it for a good reason?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because one side or the other was not gonna put in the actual commitment to make it work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So don't always take rejection as something negative.
Speaker C:Sometimes it's.
Speaker C:It's happening for a good reason, you know, that's true.
Speaker C:Is it the same way that it works for, like, pitching to the library, pitching to a sponsor or something?
Speaker C:Or is it different?
Speaker A:Yeah, no, it's pretty much the same.
Speaker A:Like when we're pitching the sponsors, we try to make sure, like, we align in some capacity and just tell them, like, what we're doing.
Speaker A:And if they stand by and truly believe in what we do, they support us.
Speaker A:And so we are very grateful for all the sponsors we've had thus far.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And can hopefully do more in the future.
Speaker C:Oh, you are breaking up for a second.
Speaker C:Can you talk about some of the first people that you helped get jobs by through the group?
Speaker A:Oh, that's a number.
Speaker A:We're trying to figure out, number wise, of how we stay, how we get those stats, pretty much of how we continue to involve in that, helping them build that out.
Speaker A:But we have helped a few.
Speaker A:And so those who we've helped is definitely with our portfolio review.
Speaker A:We usually host that every once in a while, which are hoping to have more this year.
Speaker A:And so with that, it's Allowing them to talk to already industry designers, learn about what it is to add in their portfolio.
Speaker A:We also do resume reviews and quickly take a look at that too and be like, okay, what is it that I need help to improve this and that?
Speaker A:And so having that as an option allows people just still build that connection too, with this person that they're speaking with, but also be able to involve in seeing what they didn't see and how to make their portfolio a little bit better.
Speaker C:But when they apply, what are the most common things that people don't realize when they're trying to get jobs?
Speaker C:And then you have to kind of push, nudge them in the right direction.
Speaker A:Definitely putting things in mock ups, that's one thing.
Speaker A:Like a lot of people just put like the image on the screen and it's like, it's good when you see it in a mock up because that's what it's gonna become.
Speaker A:You know, you gotta put it in the form of a book.
Speaker A:Look, see what it looks like from every angle and that way you're able to see.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:Maybe the image or the type is too big.
Speaker A:I gotta shrink it down a little bit.
Speaker A:Because when it's just an image, it's just an image.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's hard to imagine.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it's hard to imagine what that's physically gonna look like.
Speaker A:So that's one thing I've definitely noticed.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think when you can put the person viewing the image in the scenario in which they would see it, it helps to give you a better idea of what it can be as opposed to.
Speaker C:If you just give them an image, you're making them do the work in order to see it, which is not, not a great idea, I think.
Speaker A:No, that's so true.
Speaker C:Do you have any places you recommend where people can get mock ups ready?
Speaker C:I know there's a few places, but I don't know if you have any specifically for books.
Speaker A:Oh, a friend of mine, I'm gonna throw her in the plug.
Speaker A:Her name is Monique Sterling.
Speaker A:She created these amazing mock ups for books.
Speaker A:You could definitely check it out on her website.
Speaker A:She has like a shop available and it's from all different sizes, paper overboards, hardcovers, paperbacks.
Speaker A:It's like amazing just to see because she also used to be in the industry too, so she knows what it's like to present the book in the forefront.
Speaker A:And she's made amazing mock ups and continue to do such great work with that too.
Speaker A:Because a lot of these websites are just like, they'll Be iffy about downloading it from a website and so that her website is a great resource.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Make sure you're getting it from a place where you have the rights to use it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Is one.
Speaker C:And then that it's like good enough quality to be up to standards of people who would be looking at it to judge whether or not they would want to hire you.
Speaker C:I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, that's so true.
Speaker A:You got to have the presentation like.
Speaker A:Like a chef always going to have the plate.
Speaker A:The presentation is what matters, of course, the product in itself.
Speaker A:But presentation is key.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:What are some of your favorite designs from either your.
Speaker C:What you've done recently or what.
Speaker C:What you've seen out in the world.
Speaker C:Is there anything like, interesting that you've never seen before?
Speaker A:I can't think of.
Speaker A:I think I'm always, I guess to give an answer.
Speaker A:I'm surprised when they see like all these effects come out, like sometimes because like for us we use a lot of.
Speaker A:Just most of our effects are just matte.
Speaker A:So it's always nice to see like how people are doing special effects when it's like gloss, deboss, foil, how they're putting it on or what, like what they're using it for.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:It's always nice to see when a book comes out and it's like, has that special look or even just the end papers like, whoa, that is.
Speaker A:That's nice.
Speaker A:And that's so rare to come by.
Speaker C:What, what other aspects of the book process are you familiar with?
Speaker C:Do you work with authors as far as in the publishing industry, do you work with any pr.
Speaker C:What other parts of the machine are you kind of involved in, if any?
Speaker A:Just the COVID and the jacket pretty much.
Speaker A:There's a rare occasion, like years ago I was asked to work on, to try seeing.
Speaker A:Putting some things.
Speaker A:It was like a book cover about a cat, about cats.
Speaker A:And so we try to do like a mock up.
Speaker A:And so I will not a mock.
Speaker A:We did a.
Speaker A:I did a mockup of a tote bag that had like little kittens on it.
Speaker A:It didn't get full, it didn't get approved.
Speaker A:But it was cute to kind of see and carry that throughout in a different way and, you know, having fun with it.
Speaker C:So you don't do any of the marking materials.
Speaker C:It's just.
Speaker C:Literally just the.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Just covers.
Speaker C:So there's a whole other team that.
Speaker A:There's a whole nother team that does.
Speaker C:All the work that takes all of.
Speaker A:The marketing that we get asked to do certain things.
Speaker C:You know, Interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I guess I'm wondering if the other parts of the book making process are also isolated in their own silos or if it's just because you're working on one very, very specific aspect of the book.
Speaker A:You know, there's a team for everything.
Speaker A:Like, there's a team who does the, you know, cover reveals graphics.
Speaker A:There's a team that does the interior, the jacket.
Speaker A:Well, sometimes, like, we're doing the jackets too, but in some cases, depending on, you know, the size of the team or the capacity, some people.
Speaker A:Somebody else might be doing it for you.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's interesting that people don't really realize that.
Speaker A:They think, oh, you got this one book, you're going to work on the whole thing throughout.
Speaker A:It's like, no, I don't have time.
Speaker C:I only do so many covers to make.
Speaker A:You're asking for too much on this bare minimum salary.
Speaker C:How many covers do you usually work on at a time?
Speaker A:About probably a little bit less than 10 at time.
Speaker A:There's probably cases where some people work on more than that, but I need sleep, you know, so teach his own.
Speaker C:Is that like, they're all, like, staggered as far as where you are in the progress of making them, or they're all like, at 10 at a time and the deadlines are.
Speaker A:It did.
Speaker A:So we give ourselves.
Speaker A:So there's like, deadlines, of course, like, usually the average is like two weeks or three weeks.
Speaker A:So it depends.
Speaker A:There's certain ones where I'm like, probably working on two covers to show that same week or maybe three.
Speaker A:And so that's a juggle in itself.
Speaker A:And it depends because sometimes you'll get one done.
Speaker A:It comes back early, the feedback, or then it comes back later on.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:You just never know.
Speaker A:You just really have to juggle.
Speaker A:And that's when that, like that time concept, time management, do not procrastinate comes into play.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes time restraints are good, but not if you're not prepared for it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, I think it's only good if you know that it's gonna be something that's imposed versus something that's, you know, just coming up.
Speaker C:Oh, my gosh, it's.
Speaker C:I have to do it by.
Speaker C:It reminds me of like taking a test in school when you have those nightmares.
Speaker A:Is that I'm not really about the covers I work with.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, man, did I send the right file?
Speaker A:Is it an RGB or cmyk?
Speaker A:Is that even visible?
Speaker A:Did I make sure it was bleed?
Speaker A:It's always something that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, every once in a while those jeans come apart.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Just being prepared as possible is also, I think, an important part of the process.
Speaker C:What is, what is your process from start to finish of a design?
Speaker A:Of course, reading.
Speaker A:Then after reading, after looking at all my notes, I usually.
Speaker A:So I break things down in terms like notes that I felt was inspired by specific, maybe like a tone of it which helps with type, and then the specific imagery in itself.
Speaker A:And so then I kind of montage the two.
Speaker A:I spend like a couple of days looking up type, then a couple of days looking up imagery, and then I combine the two.
Speaker A:Then maybe I do more image research, more type research, and kind of find one that pretty much almost like pairing of which one works overall and has that good feeling and then trying all the crazy special effects if it's needed to test things out.
Speaker C:Gotcha.
Speaker C:What advice would you give to somebody who's interested in the idea of becoming a book cover designer?
Speaker A:Definitely always go to a bookstore and check out the books that are out there.
Speaker A:That's where you're gonna find the latest and the greatest covers that are out there.
Speaker A:Look behind in the COVID credits, look up the people who are, you know, giving the credit to it, whether it's an illustrator or a designer, and just look and get.
Speaker A:Get familiar with other people's work.
Speaker A:And not only just the covers that you or the stories that you like, sometimes look at the covers in the genre that you really don't.
Speaker A:You know, that's not really a strong suit because that's how you're going to also find creativity in itself in a whole new way.
Speaker A:So don't shy away from that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Sometimes I think the idea is to do the opposite of what everyone else is doing in order to be the one that.
Speaker C:Oh, this is interesting.
Speaker C:I've never seen a fantasy novel with whatever this cover is, you know.
Speaker A:No, that's so true.
Speaker C:But I think the one thing is like expectation versus what you.
Speaker C:What you see.
Speaker C:So it's like you have to balance.
Speaker C:People expect to see when you're looking for fantasy, this very specific thing.
Speaker C:And if you have something out there, it may or may not work.
Speaker C:So I think the only way to know is to.
Speaker C:To kind of just pitch it and see what the response is.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker C:Cool.
Speaker C:I have a few more questions left.
Speaker C:Let me see.
Speaker C:Do you know anyone personally who also runs a standout creative business and what do they do to stand out?
Speaker A:I would give a shout out to the one thing that came to Mind is Zoe.
Speaker A:She's the designer and creative behind I Need a Book cover dot com.
Speaker A:And so her website is almost very similar in vein, like highlighting other designers who are in the publishing industry.
Speaker A:And she's been doing amazing work too.
Speaker A:She has a blog, you can read all about stuff and a bunch of covers that are put in almost, probably daily or weekly of what's out there.
Speaker A:It's almost like your virtual ops, your virtual bookstore.
Speaker A:You can just see the covers that are out there.
Speaker A:It's amazing work.
Speaker A:And so just shouting her out.
Speaker C:Cool.
Speaker C:Are there any other, like groups?
Speaker C:I think there was another one that you mentioned on your site for helping find publishers or.
Speaker C:Well, I forget what it was exactly.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:Which one.
Speaker A:Are you talking about the indie pages?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:That's okay.
Speaker A:The indie pages.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's like a.
Speaker A:I would say like a little partnership website that we had going on.
Speaker A:And it's still, still going on.
Speaker A:It's where independent authors can find resources of whether or not the route of being self published or traditionally published is a directory where you can find editors, illustrators, designers, and it's just amazing resource.
Speaker A:And so that's pretty much that stemmed from the constant emails that I was getting at one point of being like, do you.
Speaker A:Are you guys a business?
Speaker A:Do you guys help independent authors?
Speaker A:And although we do at a certain scale, we couldn't really give as much effort to that avenue.
Speaker A:And so having that extra website, which was created by Monique Sterling, she put all that information, interviewed a bunch of people in the industry and got as much knowledge and resources and added that all in one little hub.
Speaker A:So it's a great resource for independent authors, for themselves.
Speaker C:That's awesome.
Speaker C:Sometimes the biggest opportunities come after something else comes before it.
Speaker C:That is a perfect example of an opportunity because people are asking about it.
Speaker C:So this is something that people need.
Speaker A:But I know somebody else who can.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that's why I think partnerships are often a great idea.
Speaker C:Because you can point each other to the other person to get stuff done with people you trust.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:What is one extraordinary book, podcast, documentary or tool that has made the biggest impact on your journey?
Speaker A:Oh, there was a book called.
Speaker A:I think it's called Big Magic.
Speaker A:That was one book that was really.
Speaker A:That pretty much gave me a little sense of courage too, at the same time, after reading it, because it was really about pushing your idea and just doing it and not just wait around.
Speaker A:Because if you wait around, the universe is going to pass along to someone else who's going to do it.
Speaker A:And so nowadays Whenever I have an idea, I'm like, oh, I'm just going to do it without fear.
Speaker A:I'm just going to push to it, get what I need to get done.
Speaker A:And if I fail at it, so be it.
Speaker A:As long as I know I'm putting in the work to make it work, that's the outcome and that's what it needs to be put in.
Speaker A:You know, that's, that's what it's going to show, that effort behind it and community and support would follow once they.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think as, as long as you're passionate about something and you give it that effort, it's something that can happen.
Speaker C:It may take a while, obviously, depending on how much support you have.
Speaker C:But it's always important to, to at least give it a try or make an attempt before you saying I give up.
Speaker C:Because that's often what separates somebody who makes it versus someone who doesn't.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker C:What do you think makes a creative business stand out and what is one piece of advice that you would give based on your experience to help somebody stand out?
Speaker A:Definitely having trust, I think, in your community or building that trust for your community.
Speaker A:I saw a lot of people would just sometimes about like numbers and getting, you know, going viral, X, Y and Z.
Speaker A:But it's like there's a difference between having community and followers.
Speaker A:The community are going to back you up regardless of what you do and how you do it because they believe and they trust in that mission versus a follower.
Speaker A:Just gonna look around and see what you do and maybe like a few posts here.
Speaker A:But are they going to donate?
Speaker A:Are they going to show up?
Speaker A:Are they going to support you when you need that support, a helping hand when something goes wrong?
Speaker A:And so there's a difference between the two.
Speaker C:So yeah, I think.
Speaker C: 've heard about Kevin Kelly's: Speaker C:Because most of those people don't really care that much.
Speaker A:That's so true.
Speaker C:Can you give the listeners a challenge that they can take action on right now to start standing out.
Speaker A:Man.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:A challenge is.
Speaker A:Man, it's gonna need a minute.
Speaker A:A challenge is like standing out, man.
Speaker A:I don't, Can I skip the question?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:That's a challenge in itself.
Speaker A:I need to do that challenge.
Speaker C:You can think about it and I'll just edit it out.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:A challenge.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:Man, I don't know.
Speaker A:A challenge.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I can't.
Speaker A:I can't give you one.
Speaker C:What would you.
Speaker C:What would you challenge yourself to do right now?
Speaker A:Maybe to not work on the computer so much.
Speaker C:Perfect.
Speaker A:I would say.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, there's my answer.
Speaker A:I would say not to work on the computer so much.
Speaker A:Take a step back, Just take out a pen and paper the old school way and just draw, sketch, letter, whatever it is.
Speaker A:Go outside, go for a walk, take your phone, take some photos, go back into a bookstore and just start from scratch rather than jumping right onto a computer and hitting Google.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think most of our instincts are to automatically go right into whatever it is.
Speaker C:And I think sometimes we.
Speaker C:We neglect the physical world because there's a world out there that exists beyond the computer screen.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I think it's important to always go back, especially into nature, not only just to get inspiration, but also to get some sunlight, because that's something.
Speaker C:Or exercise just something that's not always related to the screen.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker C:Well, it's been great talking to you, Dominique.
Speaker C:Can you let people know where they can find you and keep up to date with what you're up to?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:For personal connections, you can follow me on Instagram at.
Speaker A:I am Dominique with three E's on my website, dominiquejones.org that's W O R K.
Speaker A:Follow Black and bumble designer support us blackaboutbook designers.com well, blackabout book designers organization.
Speaker A:Bnbbook designers.com is the website, and on most of our platforms, we're called BnB book designers as well, which is Instagram.
Speaker A:Threads.
Speaker A:What else?
Speaker A:YouTube.
Speaker A:We have substack, but yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that's not spelled exactly black and brown.
Speaker C:It's blk and then B rwn.
Speaker A:Yes, thank you for pointing that out.
Speaker A:So if you search for that, if you type it in Google, either way, it still comes up.
Speaker C:But I did notice there's also, like, a bookstore with the same name, which is interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, there is a bookstore with the.
Speaker C:Same name, so that's kind of fun.
Speaker C:All right, Dominique, it's been great talking to you.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Lovely chatting.
Speaker C:All right, see you later.
Speaker A:See you.
Speaker B:Dominique isn't just a designer creating beautiful book covers.
Speaker B:She's amplifying voices and building a community.
Speaker B:And most importantly, she's reshaping an industry that's historically left out.
Speaker B:Designers of color.
Speaker B:If you're ready to be a part of something, bigger and actually make some noise like Dominique.
Speaker B:Head to thestandoutcreatives.com and let's chat.
Speaker B:Let's take that amazing idea of yours and turn it into something that makes an impact.
Speaker B:The world is waiting for the change only you can create.
Speaker B:Let's make it happen together.
