17: Finish Your Book Without Burning Out with Cynthia Morris
What if the key to unlocking your creativity as a writer wasn't about perfection, but about embracing the messy process, taking risks, and finding support along the way?
Cynthia Morris is a writer, artist, and certified coach who has spent over two decades helping creatives finally get their ideas out of their heads and onto the page. As the founder of Original Impulse, she's guided countless writers to focus, follow through, and finish their books without burning out.
In this episode, Cynthia talks about how to stay committed to your writing, why accountability is key, how to handle rejection without losing your spark, and what it really takes to finish your book.
The Vulnerability of Writing
Cynthia talks openly about the vulnerability involved in writing. She believes that writing requires a deep level of self-expression, and sometimes, the best stories come from embracing our imperfections. "Writing is an act of generosity," she says. It’s about sharing your story with others, even when it feels scary.
Try this: Write without worrying about how it will turn out. Just let the words flow.
Bonus idea: Reflect on a moment where you felt vulnerable in your own work. What did you learn from it?
The Role of Accountability in Writing
When it comes to staying on track with your writing projects, accountability is a game-changer. Cynthia shares how having the right support system, whether through coaching or writing groups, has helped her stay focused and motivated. "You can’t do anything alone," she says, underscoring the importance of collaboration in the creative process.
Try this: Find someone to check in with on your writing goals. Whether it’s a coach or a fellow writer, accountability helps you stay committed.
Bonus idea: Join a writing group or community where you can share your progress and get feedback.
Embracing Rejection and Building Confidence
Rejection is a part of every creative’s journey, and Cynthia opens up about how it has shaped her growth. You have to try and lot of things and be unafraid of rejection. "You never know what’s going to happen," she says, because big risks can lead to big rewards.
Try this: Reframe rejection as part of the learning process. What can you take from each "no"?
Bonus idea: Make a list of past rejections that later led to something better. You might be surprised by what you uncover.
The Art of Writing a Novel
Cynthia’s journey to writing her first novel, Chasing Sylvia Beach, took 12 years and 17 drafts. But for her, it was more than just the end product. It was about the growth that happened along the way. "Writing a book is quite the thing," Cynthia says. It’s a slow, humbling process that requires patience, persistence, and a willingness to fail.
Try this: Break your writing into smaller tasks. What’s one scene or chapter you can focus on today?
Bonus idea: Set a timer for 15 minutes and write freely, without editing. Let go of perfection.
Marketing Your Book: A Continuous Journey
Writing a book is one thing. Getting it out into the world? That’s a whole other challenge. Cynthia talks about the importance of ongoing marketing efforts, and how it’s not just about pushing your book at launch time. "Marketing is an ongoing effort," she says. It’s about building relationships and staying consistent over time.
Try this: Think about how you can build relationships with your readers. What’s one new way you could engage with your audience?
Bonus idea: Write a blog post, share an insight, or connect with readers on social media. Start building your community today.
Success Stories and the Generosity of Writing
Through her coaching work, Cynthia has seen firsthand how embracing vulnerability and authenticity in writing leads to profound transformations. "Writing is an act of generosity," she says. It’s about sharing your truth with others, and in the process, you can help someone else find theirs.
Try this: Think about a story you’ve always wanted to share. What’s stopping you from writing it?
Bonus idea: Reach out to someone who has inspired you through their writing. Let them know how their work has impacted you.
Quick Recap:
- Writing is about embracing vulnerability and imperfection.
- Accountability helps you stay committed to your creative projects.
- Rejection is part of the journey, and it can lead to unexpected opportunities.
- Writing is a slow, humbling process, but it’s worth every step.
- Marketing your book is a long-term commitment, not just a one-time push.
- Writing is an act of generosity that can transform both the writer and the reader.
Ready to Unleash Your Creativity?
Cynthia’s story is a reminder that every creative journey is different, but it’s also filled with opportunities for growth and self-expression. If you’re ready to take your writing, and your creative business, to the next level, I’d love to help.
Book a free strategy session at TheStandoutCreatives.com. Let’s dive into your creative journey and make it even more fulfilling. Spots are limited, so grab yours while they’re open.
Transcript
And one of the things I've learned is that we all have that.
Speaker A:And my clients are very smart, highly accomplished people who've done all kinds of things.
Speaker A:And it has nothing to do with how smart you are or how accomplished you are.
Speaker A:When you're creating something that's really of your soul and like something that's deeply meaningful to you, you're going to go through stuff.
Speaker A:It took me a while to learn that they struggle, too.
Speaker A:We all have the same struggles.
Speaker A:And that's the benefit of being a coach for so long, is I hope that I'm able to normalize it for people.
Speaker A:No, this isn't you.
Speaker A:This is not because you're not capable or inept or not smart enough or not a good writer.
Speaker A:This is the job.
Speaker A:We all face it, and it's okay.
Speaker B:Welcome to the Standout Creatives, where making money and creating meaningful work go hand in hand.
Speaker B:You're already passionate about what you create.
Speaker B:Now let's turn that passion into a standout business.
Speaker B:Marketing your work doesn't have to be overwhelming.
Speaker B:It can actually amplify your creativity.
Speaker B:I'm your guide, Kevin Chung, and this podcast is your roadmap to creative business success.
Speaker B:I'll show you how to turn your unique talents into a business that truly represents who you are.
Speaker B:Let's get started with the key to finishing your book wasn't about grinding it out, but about learning to trust the messy process.
Speaker B:Cynthia Morris has spent over 20 years helping writers navigate the creative journey.
Speaker B:She's a writer, artist, and certified coach who understands the real work of creativity.
Speaker B:She knows the ups and downs, the stuck moments, and the tiny wins that keep you going.
Speaker B:As the founder of Original Impulse, she's guided countless creatives from stuck to started, from idea to page, and from doubt to confidence.
Speaker B:In this episode, we're breaking down the real secrets of creative work.
Speaker B:How to embrace imperfection, rebuild after rejection, and stay committed with support that actually works.
Speaker B:If you've been stuck or second guessing your voice, this one's for you.
Speaker B:Now, onto the episode.
Speaker B:Welcome to another episode of the Standout Creatives.
Speaker B:Today I have on Cynthia Morris.
Speaker B:Cynthia is a writer, artist, and certified coach who has spent over two decades helping creatives finally get their ideas out of their heads and onto the page.
Speaker B:As the founder of Original Impulse, she's guided countless writers to focus, follow through, and finish their books without overwhelming themselves.
Speaker B:Cynthia knows firsthand how easy it is to get stuck, second guess yourself, and let life get in the way.
Speaker B:That's why she's made it her mission to help creatives write smarter, faster, and with more joy.
Speaker B:Whether through coaching retreats in Paris, in Lisbon, or her numerous books, Cynthia is here to help you stop waiting and start writing.
Speaker B:And she's also a guest on my former podcast, Cracking Creativity.
Speaker B:So welcome back, Cynthia.
Speaker B:Can you tell us, for those who haven't listened to that episode, some more about yourself and how you got into the work you're doing?
Speaker A:Thanks, Kevin.
Speaker A:Thanks for having me back.
Speaker A:It's always fun to talk to you.
Speaker A:So I, since I was a kid, I wanted to be a writer.
Speaker A:Now I kind of think that my entire life is all about books.
Speaker A:It's not 100% about books, but I'm either reading books, writing a book, helping people write a book, or going to the library to bring home a stack of books, just like I did when I was a little girl.
Speaker A:Although the books are much thicker now, so I don't get through as many.
Speaker A:But I also, I'm one of those people who have a lot of interests, and one of the things they say when you're starting a business is that just doesn't work.
Speaker A:You have to focus.
Speaker A:You have to have only one offer.
Speaker A:And I've always struggled with that.
Speaker A:And finally just kind of gave up on thinking that I have to only be one thing.
Speaker A:And I bring that up because I'm also an artist.
Speaker A:I got a D in high school.
Speaker A:Art.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker B:It's so funny.
Speaker A:Isn't that awful?
Speaker A:Of course.
Speaker A:So then that's decades of thinking I'm not an artist.
Speaker A:I better just stay in the lane of writing.
Speaker A:But I took up drawing as a way to meditate and just relax.
Speaker A:And it was really a great hobby or habit to.
Speaker A:To really calm myself, especially with groups or just hanging around.
Speaker A:It was easier to have something to doodle with than just sit there.
Speaker A: after I published my novel in: Speaker A:And so I kind of consider myself a writer and an artist and really enjoy seeing how those things come together.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:What kind of books did you like to read as a kid?
Speaker A:I liked reading books that featured girls.
Speaker A:I read the Little House on the Prairie books.
Speaker A:I'm just listening to a great podcast called wilder by Glynis McNicoll, breaking that whole story down about how they were written and the whole scandal and then some of the very dubious kind of racist things that are in the book.
Speaker A:So that's really interesting to go back to something that had a big impact on me as a girl.
Speaker A:And break it down as an adult.
Speaker A:Another series that I really loved was this author named Madeleine Lengel who wrote Wrinkle in Time and then A Swiftly Tilting Planet.
Speaker A:And when did you read those?
Speaker B:I've read A Wrinkle in Time a long time ago, but I don't think I understood it when I was reading it because I was like a kid so totally.
Speaker A:It's, it's.
Speaker A:I thought the.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I looked at it just yesterday and the, because I have the, the copies of those books that I had when I was a child.
Speaker A:It's crazy.
Speaker A:They're really well read.
Speaker A:The Wrinkle in Time.
Speaker A:A Wrinkle in Time is kind of sci fi, which is not at all what I read, but it was again featuring a girl character.
Speaker A:I really liked that when I was a child, just to have those kind of role models of girls who are doing interesting things.
Speaker A:And then the last series of books that I remember reading was the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe series.
Speaker A:And it's interesting to me how even today books and series are super popular.
Speaker A:And it makes sense.
Speaker A:Once you get into a character, you want to know more, you want to keep going.
Speaker A:And it's a great thing for authors, it's a great thing for readers.
Speaker A:And I know that now it's books and series, that fiction that really sell a lot.
Speaker A:And so I think that's kind of an interesting trend that has endured.
Speaker B:One interesting thing I heard recently was that books, certain books only became popular because you only had a small number of books throughout time.
Speaker B:Up until that point in time, until the Internet.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Not everyone could write and publish a book.
Speaker B:So as soon as the Internet came, it became much harder to get noticed.
Speaker B:So I think if your, your book is very good, it'll stand the test of time.
Speaker B:But even if those books were written today, they may not get noticed because it's so hard.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah, that is true.
Speaker A:Just how, how technology has changed the way we live and read.
Speaker A:Just even thinking about when I was a girl, how did I find out about books?
Speaker A:It was just going to the library and looking.
Speaker A:I spent a lot of time at the library, which makes me happy.
Speaker A:I still do.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So yeah, I think being able to discover more books and different kinds of books and books that are related to the kind that you like now, that's way better.
Speaker A:There is obviously just so much, so many more books.
Speaker A:Not enough time even.
Speaker A:I have a huge stack.
Speaker A:I can't, I don't know when I'm gonna read them all.
Speaker B:I don't think we'll ever read all of the books.
Speaker B:I have so many books unread.
Speaker B:But the, the fact that you have a choice to choose what you want to read is a good luxury, but also, you know, a difficult choice.
Speaker B:What, how do you determine what to read at this point in time?
Speaker A:Well, I'm publishing my second novel this summer, so I've been reading similar titles just to understand what else is out there that's similar to my book.
Speaker A:And then I'm in two book groups.
Speaker A:One that I started 20 years ago and we read literary fiction and we get together once a year and choose all of the books for the year for like 15 months.
Speaker A:We just choose pretty far out.
Speaker A:And then my editor, Kristen Tate, just started a book group called Novel Study.
Speaker A:And she's super smart and really knows how to break down what's going on in a novel.
Speaker A:And she just started a book group on Patreon.
Speaker A:And so I'm, I'm reading a book for that, for reading best sellers, which is not something I usually do read right off the bestseller list.
Speaker B:Do you think it helps to have a group of people to also read with or do you like choosing your own?
Speaker B:Sometimes both.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's a great question.
Speaker A:Because I get frustrated with my book group.
Speaker A:We meet every six weeks so there's time to read two or three other books as well.
Speaker A:But I do get.
Speaker A:There are a lot of books in my book group last year that I just didn't like, didn't want to read and so I didn't read as many and I read my own.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's a balance.
Speaker A:And it's a balance.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I wake up like early, like way too early, like 3:30.
Speaker A:And so I start.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:I was like, do not get up.
Speaker A:But I started reading at that time.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, here we are.
Speaker A:Let's.
Speaker A:I've got a new little book light, which is great.
Speaker A:That attaches to the book.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think I should also do things like not watch, know movies at night and read instead.
Speaker A:But really looking to get more reading into my life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Do you think it's important to be a voracious reader if you're going to be a writer?
Speaker A:Well, a lot of people say that is true and I wouldn't prescribe that because some people don't read, which I don't understand.
Speaker A:But that's fine.
Speaker A:Not everybody to read.
Speaker A:But I think I know I can just speak for myself.
Speaker A:I've.
Speaker A:I know I've learned a lot, especially when I'M in the middle of writing something, and I'm trying to learn how to do something, and it's really.
Speaker A:I get the concept, but I have a hard time implementing it.
Speaker A:And then when I see somebody doing it, then I'm like, oh, there's how they did it.
Speaker A:That's what they've done.
Speaker A:And with my clients, and they're like, I'm trying to write like this.
Speaker A:I want my book to be like this.
Speaker A:Then I'll say, break it down.
Speaker A:Go to that first chapter.
Speaker A:Go to that first page.
Speaker A:What are they doing?
Speaker A:How did you start feeling about the character?
Speaker A:And when did you start caring?
Speaker A:And what they say in that sentence to make you care?
Speaker A:So I think reading is a great way to learn how to be a writer.
Speaker A:I just can't help myself.
Speaker A:I've always been a big reader, and I.
Speaker A:I think that's probably why I wanted to be a writer when I was a kid.
Speaker A:I don't know why I would want to be otherwise, why I would know, like, to be a writer.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:It's not for making money, that's for sure.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's definitely like.
Speaker B:I mean, you can make money, obviously, but it's not where you would go automatically if you thought, I want to make money, I want to be a writer.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think the craft is something that is just naturally difficult because, I mean, it's still like a relatively new phenomenon, right?
Speaker B:Relative to the history of humans and stuff, writing is still kind of new.
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker A:That's an interesting way to think about it.
Speaker A:I haven't thought about it that way.
Speaker A:The way I think about writing in terms of the craft is it's very slow.
Speaker A:It's super slow.
Speaker A:Even if the mechanism of getting our words out on, you know, with a keyboard, that's fast, or getting it out in the world, that could be like.
Speaker A:It's out there.
Speaker A:The act of writing something takes a long time, and a lot of my clients are really frustrated by that.
Speaker A:Maybe AI will change that and speed it up.
Speaker A:But the other thing is that it's incredibly humbling.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:It's not easy to write well, and it takes a lot of practice and humility and vulnerability.
Speaker A:I mean, I, you know, just speak for myself.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:I had to write a lot of bad stuff before coming out with something that I feel is just good enough.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think everyone that writes knows that even if you're a really good writer, your first draft is still going to be pretty terrible until you've like, looked at it, examine it.
Speaker B:Does it make sense?
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:No matter how long you've been writing, I think it's still just a process that takes a while because you.
Speaker B:You have to kind of craft it in a way that is most effective.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And even what am I trying to say?
Speaker A:Is just a big question that takes a while to answer.
Speaker A:And what am I trying to say in this book?
Speaker A:I heard an interview with Charles Duhigg a couple weeks ago who wrote.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh, the title's escaping Me.
Speaker A:Something about the habit.
Speaker A:The Power of Habit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:One of the habit books.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Escaping me too.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker A:It's not the Power of Habit.
Speaker A:It'll come to us.
Speaker A:He said it takes him a year actively working on the book to just figure out what the book is about.
Speaker A:And my clients get really frustrated when it's.
Speaker A:They don't have it figured out in a couple of months.
Speaker A:And I'm like, this is.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This takes a lot of excavating and real, like, deep and wide thinking.
Speaker A:And so, wow, this is a real sales pitch for writing a book, isn't it?
Speaker A:But the thing is, I feel like if you.
Speaker A:If you have.
Speaker A:If you have this impulse to write, you have to follow it.
Speaker A:You have no idea what.
Speaker A:I don't know what it'll be like.
Speaker A:It might be really fast, it might be easy, but I think if you have that impulse to write or create anything, you have to follow it, because you don't have that for a reason.
Speaker A:And as you said, it's not necessarily you're trying to be some wealthy from it.
Speaker A:But I also believe that the things that we create teach us a lot about ourselves and help us to grow as people.
Speaker A:And I started out as a coach, a trained coach, and started right away working with writers and artists and just realized, wow, all of your stuff will come up.
Speaker A:You really will have to take a stand for yourself just to make the time and then take a stand for yourself and what you believe.
Speaker A:And I think the writing's so hard, Kevin, because I think that it requires more honesty and vulnerability than most of us are really interested in showing.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:I see it as a personal growth path, and that might be just a way to help me and others accept the rigor of it, but I think it's worth it.
Speaker A:I think when you do your creative work and finish something, you get some kind of insight or payoff or understanding of yourself and of life.
Speaker B:There's a really good quote.
Speaker B:I don't remember who said it, but the richest place on the earth is the graveyard.
Speaker B:Because all the good ideas that people didn't get out there are all there.
Speaker B:So it's like if you have that great idea, you have to at least attempt to get it out there.
Speaker B:If not, complete it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:That's a great quote.
Speaker A:I've never heard that.
Speaker A:And I do think, like you said, at least attempt, because who wants to just spend all this time wondering?
Speaker A:I don't like it.
Speaker A:I don't like this feeling of, oh, maybe I'll do that someday.
Speaker A:And I know that a lot of people do like that because you can live with a sense of possibility, and we love possibility.
Speaker A:But it doesn't feel good to me.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:Doesn't.
Speaker A:Feels like if I'm hanging on to some idea for too long, it just starts to feel like I'm not in integrity with myself.
Speaker B:You can always replace the possibility of that first one with another one.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not like you're.
Speaker B:You're wasting your possibilities.
Speaker B:There's an endless number of possibilities.
Speaker A:That is true.
Speaker A:That is so true.
Speaker B:Can you talk a little bit about your first novel?
Speaker B:Like the.
Speaker B:How it came about and the process of writing that?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:It's called Chasing Sylvia Beach.
Speaker A:And when I was a bookseller here in Denver, I came across a book called Sylvia beach and the Lost Generation by Noel Riley Fitch.
Speaker A:And I've always been obsessed with Paris.
Speaker A:I have a highly useful French degree and always wanted to, you know how people get obsessed with Paris in the 20s and 30s.
Speaker A:And, well, that was me.
Speaker A:And so when I read this book about Sylvia Beach, I was like, wow, this person, she.
Speaker A: merican who moved to Paris in: Speaker A:And I just thought she was so cool.
Speaker A:And she.
Speaker A:She did a lot of things and had a lot of.
Speaker A:Had a great life.
Speaker A:One of the things she did was she published James Joyce's Ulysses, which still is the number one novel, the modern novel, on all the lists of, you know, 100 best novels.
Speaker A:No one would publish it because it was just bawdy and licentious, and people just were like, no.
Speaker A:And she saw his genius and published it anyway.
Speaker A:So that's one of the things that she did.
Speaker A:And I just thought, I want her life.
Speaker A:I want to be.
Speaker A:I want to live in Paris and have all these great literary friendships.
Speaker A:And so I did a lot of things.
Speaker A:I did performance pieces about her.
Speaker A:I tried to write a screenplay.
Speaker A:I finally landed on writing a novel, and it took 12 years, and it turned out to be a completely different thing than I thought.
Speaker A:I was fortunate to apply for and get a grant from Denver's Alliance Francaise, and I used that money to go to Princeton and spend a week in her archives, which was great.
Speaker A:I thought, oh, I'm gonna really find something that I haven't found in the books.
Speaker A:Like, there's going to be something that will reveal, you know, her vulnerability and her being more than just some great Persona that everybody loved that I didn't.
Speaker A:I found nothing.
Speaker A:I found nothing new.
Speaker A:So when I came home from that, I kind of had to reset and restart and really break free and fictionalize it.
Speaker A:It became a time travel novel.
Speaker A:It became a novel about a character who was in this time going back in time and meeting her.
Speaker A:Never wanted to write a time travel book, but.
Speaker A:But that's.
Speaker A:That's how it happened.
Speaker A:But took 12 years.
Speaker A:It was a.
Speaker A:17 drafts and a lot of really bad writing and a lot of really brutal feedback from readers to finally achieve a book that I feel is a good book.
Speaker A:I don't know if it's a great book.
Speaker A:It doesn't matter.
Speaker A:I think it's good.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I'm really glad I did it.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:The only thing that kept me going was being a coach, being a writer's coach.
Speaker A:So a.
Speaker A:That gave, you know, I had the skills to keep showing up and keep being accountable, but I also had to finish it.
Speaker A:If I didn't, then I would have to quit my job.
Speaker A:You know, Like, I couldn't.
Speaker A:Can't, like, stand here and say, oh, you can finish it.
Speaker A:Oh, I didn't.
Speaker A:I never finished mine.
Speaker A:That just would get me fired by myself.
Speaker A:So that was fierce accountability, and I'm really glad I did it.
Speaker A:It was quite a triumph for me once I finally got it out.
Speaker B:I think that's something that we all need is some sort of accountability, because obviously we can say, I can do it whenever if we don't have that element.
Speaker B:And I think we all need at least something that pushes us a little bit further than we're comfortable with or willing to.
Speaker B:To do.
Speaker B:Because otherwise there's always the possibility of waiting and it may never come.
Speaker A:Yeah, and that word that you used, willing.
Speaker A:I always.
Speaker A:Here's another book idea that I want to write a book called Willing, because I think that's really the biggest thing that we need is a willingness to spend a lot of time being uncomfortable, not unsafe, not, like, in danger of our lives, but, like, oh, I really am not used to being this incompetent.
Speaker A:I'm really not used to being this vulnerable.
Speaker A:I really don't want to be this honest when you get the feedback.
Speaker A:And I, I'm, on this last novel that I worked on, hired an editor and she, she, she was great.
Speaker A:She sent me the feedback.
Speaker A:It was a 26 page editorial letter.
Speaker A:She made a spreadsheet of the scenes.
Speaker A:There were 500 comments on the manuscript.
Speaker A:And Kevin, that became kind of my bible for the year.
Speaker A:For a year I worked off that editorial letter, like deep.
Speaker A:Going into learning, trying, trying again and sending her different drafts.
Speaker A:And even, you know, half a year ago, she's like, nope.
Speaker A:Anyway, just.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:Being willing to not be good, being willing to take feedback, being willing to stay with it when you lose faith, like, that's.
Speaker A:There's a lot of things that I think are.
Speaker A:Our general set point is against all of that discomfort.
Speaker A:So being able to be that uncomfortable, it's part of the job.
Speaker B:There's some.
Speaker B:Something interesting I'm doing this year.
Speaker B:I'm part of a group for.
Speaker B:The goal is to get 100 rejections over the year.
Speaker B:So you're just practicing your willingness to make yourself uncomfortable and get rejected for whatever you're asking for.
Speaker A:I love that I did a group like that.
Speaker A:Who's leading that group?
Speaker B:Um, someone I'm in a podcast group with called.
Speaker B:Her name is Becky Mellencamp.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It's not the same person.
Speaker A:That was the greatest thing, one of the greatest things I did.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:Are you learning a ton?
Speaker A:Is it really helping you?
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:It just started in January, so I'm.
Speaker B:I'm figuring out who I'm going to talk to, when I'm going to ask them for or ask them to help with or whatever the pitch may be.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And just being comfortable with people saying no.
Speaker B:But the surprising thing is when people say yes and you're like, oh, I was trying to get a no, but some people say yes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:That's so great.
Speaker A:I love that you're doing that.
Speaker A:I loved doing that.
Speaker A:It was hard.
Speaker A:It was so helpful.
Speaker A:But I got up some really cool brand ambassadorships and sponsorships and things that I would never have had the nerve to ask for.
Speaker A:I can't wait to see how it goes for you.
Speaker A:I'm really excited to see what happens and what develops in you as a result of just asking.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there's a book.
Speaker B:I don't know if you read it, but it's by Jia Jing.
Speaker B:I think it's rejection proof or something like that.
Speaker B:And he's the one that.
Speaker B:That made this really popular.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:He wrote a book based on his first.
Speaker B:Well, his investor pitch failed, and he's like, oh, I need to figure out what I can do to make myself more comfortable with the idea of rejection.
Speaker B:So he started this challenge for himself.
Speaker B:100 days of rejection.
Speaker B:He did it in a much smaller timeline, so that's a lot.
Speaker B:And one of his ones that went viral was going to a Krispy Kreme and asking them to make the donuts in the shape of the Olympic rings.
Speaker A:I heard that.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:He did a TED Talk, right?
Speaker A:Yes, I've seen that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I knew that name was familiar.
Speaker A:It's so cool.
Speaker A:This is going to be so great.
Speaker A:Is it hard for you to ask for help and ask for things?
Speaker B:The things that I've been asking for are mostly interviews, so it's not that difficult.
Speaker B:I think the more challenging parts would be like asking somebody to work with me as a client or to sponsor or something involving money, because those are obviously much more deeper commitments than like, an interview or something along those lines.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, I think there's.
Speaker A:We all have our discomfort level.
Speaker A:I have a hard time asking, really, for anything.
Speaker A:And it's required to actually survive.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And to thrive like you have.
Speaker A:You can't do anything alone.
Speaker A:You have to have other people, so.
Speaker A:Well, I'm super excited for you.
Speaker A:I really can't wait to hear how it goes.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker A:I know it changed my life to do that.
Speaker A:It was big.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Can you talk about some of the ones, Some of the things you attempted or got rejected for, and some of the things like this.
Speaker B:I guess the brand ambassadorship that you actually got.
Speaker A:This was 10 years ago now.
Speaker A:This time just zooms by, but one of the brand ambassadorships was Hahnemule, which is a German paper company.
Speaker A:And they actually reached out to me and said, would you like to try some of our papers?
Speaker A:And I said, sure.
Speaker A:And then their papers are great.
Speaker A:Super great quality.
Speaker A:And then I said, I lead these creativity workshops in Paris.
Speaker A:Would you supply notebooks?
Speaker A:And they did.
Speaker A:That was great.
Speaker A:And then I was partnered with Haiku Bags, which is a really great company out of Seattle.
Speaker A:They make super great bags.
Speaker A:Started as a diaper bag, like a fashionable, fashionable diaper bag company.
Speaker A:And then that woman sold it.
Speaker A:And Haiku, it's all made out of recycled materials.
Speaker A:They're super stylish and just a great company in all ways.
Speaker A:And they provided materials for my.
Speaker A:My workshops in Paris, too.
Speaker A:So that was great.
Speaker A:Cobb Hill Shoes.
Speaker A:Is a super great shoe brand that's now under Rockport Shoes.
Speaker A:I love their shoes.
Speaker A:Just like the most comfortable, stylish kind of dress shoes.
Speaker A:I reached out to them and they, they said yes.
Speaker A:So I wore their shoes for a long time.
Speaker A:It's just, it's.
Speaker A:Once you get into it, it's just really starts to be fun to ask because you, you start to realize how limited we are and how much more is possible.
Speaker A:And like, you mentioned Gia, like, even the no's teach you something.
Speaker A:Even the nose, they might just fire you up more like, oh, yeah, okay, well, I'll go somewhere else and they'll say yes.
Speaker A:It just, I think it ignites a certain kind of energy that's engaging and stimulating to do that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's not really something that we're taught to do.
Speaker B:I think is one of the biggest issues.
Speaker B:Like you're told, just do whatever you're told to do and don't like, ruffle any feathers.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But in essence, you're just trying to make a connection with somebody and figure out how this connection is beneficial to both sides.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:You're not asking them because you just want money.
Speaker B:You're asking because you like them, probably first of all, or else you wouldn't be asking them.
Speaker B:And then second of all, since you're part of the people who does like it, you can be an ambassador for them.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's easy when you love a brand or a product or something to just want everybody to know.
Speaker A:I just want everybody to know about the things I love.
Speaker A:I was going to say something and it escaped me.
Speaker A:Oh, you were talking about, you know, what it takes to ask.
Speaker A:I think you really have to.
Speaker A:You're really taking a stand for yourself, aren't you?
Speaker A:You have to believe in yourself to get somebody else to believe in you and take a.
Speaker A:Take a stand for you, make a stake with you.
Speaker A:That's the thing.
Speaker A:I think that is where we grow so much.
Speaker A:Because you're like, well, I don't know, who am I?
Speaker A:It's like, oh, I have to write it down in words.
Speaker A:I have to communicate this.
Speaker A:I have to do a pitch deck.
Speaker A:I have to actually communicate my value of what I'm doing and offering.
Speaker A:I think that's super valuable no matter what happens.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think the best thing you can do is have confidence in yourself if.
Speaker B:If you know that you're the right fit or person for anything.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You have to know that and believe it.
Speaker B:Or else when you do talk to people, you're like, I don't know what to say.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Speaker B:Can you talk about why you wanted to write a second novel?
Speaker B:Your first one took so many years to complete.
Speaker B:What was the drive to do it?
Speaker B:Another one.
Speaker A:More pain.
Speaker A:No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker A:You know, after I finished that novel, I was like, I, I, I'm done.
Speaker A:And as I mentioned, I went into making art because it was a historical fiction.
Speaker A:And I was like, I've spent enough time in, in the sepia toned past.
Speaker A:I want to be in the full color present.
Speaker A:And I also, I kind of adopted this belief that I was not a novelist, that that was not what I was here to do.
Speaker A:It wasn't a talent or a gift and I should just do other things.
Speaker A:So I did other things.
Speaker A:And I'd had this experience where I moved to Europe and I was going to Italy and I ended up in, in Portugal.
Speaker A:I ended up in Lisbon.
Speaker A:I fell in love with this guy and had this great experience with him.
Speaker A:And then it ended, as things do, and I was always like, that is going to be a great romance novel.
Speaker A:That's a great story.
Speaker A:And so it went on the list.
Speaker A:You know, you have a list of things you want to write someday, like the book Willing, that's on there.
Speaker A:And this book was on there.
Speaker A: And in: Speaker A:And then after it was over, I was like, nope, put it in the drawer.
Speaker A:Too painful.
Speaker A:Don't want to revisit it.
Speaker A:And then fast forward to a couple of years ago, I did another NaNoWriMo about an experience I had.
Speaker A:A NaNoWriMo, in case listeners don't know, is National Novel Writing Month.
Speaker A:It's in the month of November, and the task is to write 50,000 words or more on a new novel in the 30 days, 30 days of November.
Speaker A:And I really like that as a way to just concentrate your efforts and say, I don't really want to spend years and decades on this.
Speaker A:Get in there and do it.
Speaker A:So I'd had this experience right before that.
Speaker A:It was very disrupting to me.
Speaker A:And I was like, what happened?
Speaker A:What is that about?
Speaker A:I was like, just, just sit down and write it out every day.
Speaker A:Now, I know that there's a thing called expressive writing, which is more of a therapeutic journaling process that helps, helps us kind of organize things that happen that are traumatic.
Speaker A:So I think I was doing that.
Speaker A:But after that month, I was like, well, that's a stupid book that's not really going anywhere.
Speaker A:But what about this Portugal story?
Speaker A:So I took it up, and I was somehow better prepared to write it emotionally.
Speaker A:And I did not want to write a memoir.
Speaker A:I really wanted to fictionalize it and give myself a better ending, which I think is also a therapeutic process.
Speaker A:You're like, well, write a different ending.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that was super fun to write things for my character that.
Speaker A:That I would love to have.
Speaker A:And I found myself really enjoying it.
Speaker A:And I learned so much, Kevin.
Speaker A:I learned so much in two years.
Speaker A:It took two years to write that book.
Speaker A:So much about storytelling and writing, and that was super exciting to me.
Speaker A:I've been writing for 30 years and that I can continue to learn and then also to grow.
Speaker A:I feel like that was really.
Speaker A:Of all the therapeutic things I've done, that was the most therapeutic.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Writing about myself as a character and kind of getting outside myself and seeing all the.
Speaker A:All the things that.
Speaker A:That I had done wrong or, you know, that you read and you're like, why is she doing that?
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, because she's human.
Speaker A:I'm human.
Speaker A:And I think when I became a coach, there was some part of me that thought that I had better be better.
Speaker A:And I don't know if I.
Speaker A:Some part of me that thought I should have it all figured out if I was going to be helping people, when in reality, I, you know, I'm the same as anybody else.
Speaker A:I'm human.
Speaker A:And so that.
Speaker A:Just that, like, being normalizing myself, seeing the things I'd done from the outside and seeing that those were actually the good things that make for a good story.
Speaker A:Story was so profoundly healing.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:You know when I say at the end of every book, you get something that you.
Speaker A:You didn't have when you started.
Speaker A:And I would say that's it.
Speaker A:It was just like, oh, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm a person, too.
Speaker A:Making really bad emotional decisions and learning from them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think an interesting thing that you said was that you're still learning, and I think that applies to everyone all the time, because no one knows everything.
Speaker B:So even if you're very specific, like you're a writing coach, but very specific into writing instruction, all that kind of stuff, you still don't.
Speaker B:There's so much that you don't know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You can never learn everything there is to know about anything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Thank goodness.
Speaker A:I don't want to know everything, because how boring would that be?
Speaker A:And learning is one of my top values, so I really get A lot from.
Speaker A:I don't know if it's a dopamine hit or what, from learning from having those insights or seeing.
Speaker A:You know, what really also motivates me is seeing my.
Speaker A:Seeing improvement, seeing my writing get better.
Speaker A:So each draft is better than the last.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker A:That's really satisfying.
Speaker A:That helped me through the long haul of finishing a book.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think a lot of writers think they're bad writers because they.
Speaker B:They write the first thing and they're like, oh, this is not good at all.
Speaker B:But they.
Speaker B:They didn't go back to refine it.
Speaker B:Obviously.
Speaker B:It takes, like, even, like, one page can take, I don't know, four or five revisions until you get it the way you want it to.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I don't really think of myself as a patient person, but that is kind of required, kind of patience going along with humility to do several drafts and to fall in love with.
Speaker A:I really love the editing process and the wordsmithing.
Speaker A:A lot of people don't.
Speaker A:They really just like the flow.
Speaker A:Like, flow and getting my words out, which.
Speaker A:That's a different kind of good feeling.
Speaker A:But being able to make a sentence better.
Speaker A:Even the last time I went through my manuscript and I was just like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Speaker A:So many ways to make it better.
Speaker A:It's at the copy editor now, so I look forward to seeing how she makes it better.
Speaker A:Like her thoughts about how to make it better.
Speaker A:Yeah, Writing a book is quite the thing.
Speaker A:I really like having a big project that's got a specific goal and an end date, and that is just.
Speaker A:Just a little bit beyond me.
Speaker A:And also that requires that I get a lot of help.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't think we can do anything alone, and if we do, it's usually not as good as if we were to get help.
Speaker B:Because you.
Speaker B:You're so deep into your work that you don't see its faults.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker B:You're just kind of blind to whatever can be improved.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker B:How.
Speaker B:How was the progress from your first novel to your second one?
Speaker B:Did you notice a stark difference between the.
Speaker B:The process of how you completed each?
Speaker B:I know one, the one took 13 years and one took two, but I don't know.
Speaker A:That's a good question.
Speaker A:I don't know because I feel like I really was almost, like, starting from scratch and understanding what it is that really makes a book good.
Speaker A:It's really not the plot, it's the character arc.
Speaker A:And we think the book is about what happens, but it's like, it's about why we care, because we're not going to keep reading if we don't care.
Speaker A:And that's about the character arc.
Speaker A:And so that's like this whole other emotional process that I wasn't even aware of in my first novel in that way.
Speaker A:But, you know, after I finished that first novel, I thought I kept kind of saying this thing to myself, like, oh, yeah, that, that novel that took a piece out of me.
Speaker A:I really, you know, took a piece out of me.
Speaker A:And after saying that for so many years, I was like, my little coach voice was like, what piece exactly did it take?
Speaker A:And it was like, you know, I kind of didn't really think I was a good writer.
Speaker A:I've been writing for a long time, and I've written a lot of things, and I've written other books for my work.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm just writing all the time, it feels like.
Speaker A:But I didn't really have any belief or illusion or thought that I was a good writer.
Speaker A:And so this novel that I wrote, I started feeling, I think it was year two, because the first year was really hard.
Speaker A:It was a lot of emotional work and a lot of churn.
Speaker A:And the second year, it started to become fun.
Speaker A:And it's also when I started to see, like, I can write a scene.
Speaker A:I know how to write a scene.
Speaker A:I, oh, this is actually good.
Speaker A:Which I don't know about you, but for me, it's really rare to think anything that I've done is good because we always see more that can be better or see other people's work that's way better.
Speaker A:So to just feel a sense of this is good, that was new.
Speaker A:So I think I, I, I would not make anything up about myself one way or the other, that I'm not a novelist, or I will never write another novel.
Speaker A:But I'm really glad that I wrote a second novel because it's way more fun.
Speaker A:It's really creative.
Speaker A:And what I discovered was that it really brought so many parts of me to play into play.
Speaker A:I really love human psychology.
Speaker A:I really love relationships.
Speaker A:I love story.
Speaker A:I love description.
Speaker A:So bringing all those things together and learning how to navigate that more easily, I was like, oh, maybe I am a novelist.
Speaker A:This really.
Speaker A:And being in emotionality, I'm a very emotional person, and there's not really a lot of room for that in life, like, keep it, you know, contained.
Speaker A:But in a novel, like, it's all about the emotion.
Speaker A:How do you bring those feelings to life?
Speaker A:So that was super fun.
Speaker A:To kind of reclaim a sense of being a writer in a way that I felt I had let go of.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I remember after our first interview, you said, oh, I don't know if I would ever do that again.
Speaker B:Which is so funny because you, you can never say that you're never going to do something.
Speaker B:You don't know what's going to come up, how your life is going to change, what's going to impact you.
Speaker A:And that's why I want to do it.
Speaker A:And that's why I want people to, to do whatever they want to create.
Speaker A:You never know what's going to happen and.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:Nothing's going to happen if you don't ever put anything out there.
Speaker A:So I'm pretty excited about this novel.
Speaker A:It's called Her Lisbon Colors and it's coming out in early June.
Speaker B:Oh, nice.
Speaker B:What are you doing to.
Speaker B:To promote it, if you are?
Speaker A:Great question.
Speaker A:I just met with my marketing coach this morning and there will be, you know, the usual Instagram stories, sharing on social media.
Speaker A:I gave my character a really great budding career as a food illustrator.
Speaker A:So I will be doing some of the illustrations that a character does in the book.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was like midway through when I realized, wait, look, I'm gonna get to do these illustrations.
Speaker A:It'll be a fun way to promote the book.
Speaker A:I'll be in Lisbon in April, so I'll probably be doing some videos from there and reaching out to bookstores and local people there to help bring the book out and promote it.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I have like this huge list of ideas and none of them are coming to mind right now.
Speaker B:Too many ideas.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Book groups.
Speaker A:I'm launching a bookshop on my website and bringing all of my titles to my website for direct sales.
Speaker A:So I'll be doing that and selling books in bundles, book group bundles, podcast interviews, like this.
Speaker A:All of the things I, I've got a three to five year marketing plan, so I want to stay with it for a while.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's never ending once your book is out.
Speaker B:Doesn't mean your, your marketing is done.
Speaker B:It's just like the beginning really, other than your, you know, like pre orders and all that stuff to hide the book.
Speaker B:It's like if you want people to find it, you still have to continue to like tell people about it or else they're not going to find it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like my own hundred rejections program.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So who can you ask or what can you do to see if you get the yes, you don't know.
Speaker B:Go for the no.
Speaker B:But you might be surprised.
Speaker A:It's so hard.
Speaker A:I'm going to take you for inspiration.
Speaker A:I'm going to think about the 100 rejections thing because I think what's so great about that idea is that we think we won't survive a no and so we don't do it.
Speaker A:And even asking my friends for stuff, asking my friends to read it or promote it, that's really hard.
Speaker A:It's like they love you.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They'll do whatever they can to help.
Speaker B:If you can't ask them, who can you ask?
Speaker A:But there's a real.
Speaker A:There's a real.
Speaker A:So this is where I will be growing this year, is getting over this disinclination to ask for help.
Speaker A:And I love helping people.
Speaker A:When people reach out to me, I love helping.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I found that when I'm helping somebody or when somebody's helping me, I feel more connected to them, to life.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so it's like, well, who doesn't want more of that?
Speaker A:I want to be more connected.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:You know, it's just another way to grow is promoting something, putting it out there, believing in it, believing in the themes.
Speaker A:I think of books as conversation leaders.
Speaker A:So right now I'm working on what are the things that I want to talk about that are in the book.
Speaker A:And there's a lot.
Speaker A:And there's some things that are complex, like living in another country.
Speaker A:I think it's very big topic now.
Speaker A:People who are forced to leave home, people trying to leave home, trying to make it in an.
Speaker A:Another.
Speaker A:In another land for whatever reason.
Speaker A:It is hard.
Speaker A:So hard.
Speaker A:So I'd love to talk about all of that and things like what makes somebody an immigrant versus an expat and how do we think about people who are going from one place to another for whatever reason and where, like how the ease of being able to go live somewhere else.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of.
Speaker A:There's a lot in that topic alone.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a very timely topic right now, I think, which is unfortunate.
Speaker B:But, you know, if it helps some people deal with it, I think your book is a great avenue to explore ideas and, you know, the human condition.
Speaker B:Because I think it's still going to be universal no matter when people read this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:People are always going to be moving somewhere.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think more and more the world is a place where people are moving and all the time.
Speaker A:And it's not so much like, this is where I'm from, this is where I'm staying.
Speaker A:This is where I always will be.
Speaker A:And that's the way it should be.
Speaker A:People are scattering and moving for a lot of really bad reasons.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then I'm just on the whole scale, the whole spectrum of because they want to or because they're forced to, they've been displaced.
Speaker A:So I just think that's just the way of the world now and trying to make it.
Speaker A:Otherwise, it just doesn't.
Speaker A:It's like trying to stop a river.
Speaker B:I do love the idea of you exploring different ways of promotion, because a lot of people will get stuck on.
Speaker B:This is the plot of the book, and here's what kind of happens.
Speaker B:But you're looking at the illustrations of the character in the book and, you know, the themes of the book that you can be talked separately about without necessarily needing to talk about the book.
Speaker B:And I think that's one of the best ways to get people engaged and interested in the idea is when you talk about universal things versus, you know, the specifics of your particular book.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And why I wrote it, why it matters to me.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I cannot find this.
Speaker A:I think it was a podcast, but it was about pitching, and it was so helpful.
Speaker A:It was so informative.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They said, I really.
Speaker A:I've been looking for it and I've not been able to rediscover it, but they said that when you're pitching something, people want to know why you care.
Speaker A:Why.
Speaker A:Why are you into this thing?
Speaker A:Why does this matter to you?
Speaker A:And they said, don't bore them with the details.
Speaker A:Nobody wants to know the details.
Speaker A:They just want to catch wind with your.
Speaker A:Your enthusiasm, and they want to play a part in that.
Speaker A:So I was working on that yesterday, just writing, like, why did I write this?
Speaker A:What did it mean to me to tell this story?
Speaker A:And also, how can I make it fun?
Speaker A:I'm think even thinking like a weekly dance party, because dancing is in the book and there's a playlist for the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The novel.
Speaker A:So that kind of multimedia, creative approach makes it easier for me than it certainly won't be just like, buy my book.
Speaker A:Buy my book.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I love the.
Speaker B:The joy element because most people, when they think about marketing, you know, that that's the immediate reaction, I think, for most artists until they've realized that it's not necessarily that.
Speaker B:It's like, if you want people to consume your work, no matter what genre of creative person you are, the better it is going to be, because why are you doing it?
Speaker B:It's like you were saying in the pitch, why are you doing it?
Speaker B:And that's what people are connecting to.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, is that true for you?
Speaker A:Like, when you see somebody who's really into something, aren't you inspired?
Speaker A:You're like, oh, I want to know more.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:If they're infectious with their attitude about something, it makes it much more likely that I'm going to want to see.
Speaker B:Oh, why are they so interested in this particular thing?
Speaker B:That's like all fandoms.
Speaker B:That's what you're aiming for as far as, like fictional stuff goes.
Speaker B:It's like you want people to be passionate about it.
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, we'll see.
Speaker A:We'll see how it goes.
Speaker A:I'm just now, I just got the COVID the other day and so now I'm really turning to.
Speaker A:I've had all these ideas for a while and now I really have to put it into action.
Speaker A:I just chose the publication date.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:So things are starting to crystallize and move into.
Speaker A:Move into form.
Speaker B:How many people are involved in the book making process?
Speaker B:Because I think a lot of people think it's just the author and then they take it to publisher and then it's done.
Speaker B:But I think there's obviously a bunch of more people involved in this process.
Speaker A:Yeah, I have.
Speaker A:I was in Paris last September.
Speaker A:When was it?
Speaker A:I forget, last May.
Speaker A:And two of my friends there, really smart women authors.
Speaker A:I was telling them about my book and they said, oh, I'll be a beta reader.
Speaker A:I'll be a beta reader.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh, okay, that would be great.
Speaker A:And I'm terrified because you're so smart and like, what are you?
Speaker A:Like, what if it's terrible?
Speaker A:So beta readers, people who are ideally, they are the person that you, you want to read the book.
Speaker A:It's not an editor.
Speaker A:And ideally they're not an author.
Speaker A:They're just a reader who loves books and would just say, as a reader, here's what I liked or didn't.
Speaker A:But they, they gave great feedback.
Speaker A:And then I hired an editor and once I had the first draft, it was just like a big dump of everything that I thought should go in.
Speaker A:And so that was like a hundred thousand words or more.
Speaker A:And now the book is 85,000 words.
Speaker A:So she really helped refine it.
Speaker A:I let go of a lot.
Speaker A:And then there's copy.
Speaker A:So that's a developmental editor who really is helping you shape the story and know like create what the whole the thing is.
Speaker A:Then there's a copy editor and they're looking at things More on a grammatical level, just how does it flow?
Speaker A:Or you repeat these words a lot.
Speaker A:The sentence is clunky.
Speaker A:So they're working with really the craft of the writing.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:Then there's a proofreader who's just going through and making sure there are no typos and no errors and all of that.
Speaker A:Then I hired a book cover designer and I'm work with.
Speaker A:I'm working with the.
Speaker A:Their company's called the Book Designers.
Speaker A:It's two guys, Ian and Alan, and they've designed two of my books, two paperbacks.
Speaker A:So they do the COVID and the interior as well.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:Yeah, and then people reading advanced reading copies to start reading and start getting the word out there.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:It's not a solo process at all.
Speaker B:Even though when you think of an author, you think of, oh, it's just a person that wrote something and they're getting it.
Speaker B:But no, no.
Speaker A:Oh, then my writing group, weekly writing group, just being with me every week, I have a substack that I've been publishing for just a little over a year.
Speaker A:Every week I share what's going on in the process.
Speaker A:So I consider them in on it.
Speaker A:They are really helpful.
Speaker A:They cheer me on.
Speaker A:So I think, like you said, it's not written alone.
Speaker A:And the accountability, we think about it as accountability, like, help me do what I say I'm going to do.
Speaker A:But I think it's also just having somebody, you know, groups of writers or people who understand what you're doing and won't be saying stuff like, well, how, how.
Speaker A:When is it going to be done?
Speaker A:How long is this going to take?
Speaker A:Like, oh, it's going to take a long time.
Speaker A:It's just slow.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And my clients too, you know, they help me as well when I'm helping them.
Speaker A:It helps me to be in that process with them.
Speaker A:And it just feels like it helps with my integrity that I am not sitting on the sidelines in some comfortable place telling them they should do all this hard work.
Speaker A:I'm doing the hard work along with them, and they really appreciate that.
Speaker B:Can you talk about how you decided to work with writers specifically and some of what you helped them do?
Speaker A:Yeah, sure.
Speaker A:Well, when I became a coach, I just.
Speaker A:I found an article about coaching in a magazine and I thought, that is it.
Speaker A:That is so cool.
Speaker A: This was: Speaker A:And then I went and got training and I just loved it because it really fed my belief in human potential and my interest in human potential.
Speaker A:Like, what is possible?
Speaker A:And can we craft a life that is designed according to who we really are and what we really want to do?
Speaker A:So, you know, as they say, when you're starting a business, who are you trying to reach?
Speaker A:What is your focus?
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What are you actually helping people with?
Speaker A:And you have to choose a niche.
Speaker A:And I hated that.
Speaker A:I resisted that.
Speaker A:But then I thought, well, I.
Speaker A:I teach writing.
Speaker A:I'm into writing.
Speaker A:I'll start with that.
Speaker A:And artists as well.
Speaker A:And I learned right away that producing any creative work is so much more than just do it or just schedule it in or just set a timer.
Speaker A:It's a lot more about who we are and what we believe and how we think and live.
Speaker A:So as a trained coach, I work a lot with the inner obstacles and beliefs and also the external stuff of organizing your ideas, organizing your time, organizing your materials.
Speaker A:It's a lot of helping people organize because as I mentioned earlier, the idea of it taking a year to figure out what the book is, just organizing your ideas around a central theme.
Speaker A:Even people who have come to me with a model, that's a very clear model of what they do, and they've taught the model, they even have to go through trying to figure out how to communicate it in a book.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of holding space for people to articulate their ideas and then helping them when they feel insecure about it.
Speaker A:I just got a message from a client yesterday, was like, oh, oh.
Speaker A:I was trying.
Speaker A:My family was asking me about what my book's about, and I just couldn't get it out.
Speaker A:And I should know by now, shouldn't I?
Speaker A:No, you do know.
Speaker A:But it's really hard to communicate that.
Speaker A:And because you're.
Speaker A:You're just like, ah, you're on the spot.
Speaker A:It's very vulnerable.
Speaker A:It's hugely emotional, and it's really hard to pinpoint it in one or two.
Speaker A:Two sentences.
Speaker A:So they received homework from me to write it down.
Speaker A:I said, I know this might seem simplistic, but just write it down.
Speaker A:Because, you know, write it in one sentence and you might have to keep it with you, remember?
Speaker A:But yeah, so stuff like that.
Speaker A:So it's really helping people with the inner and the outer obstacles.
Speaker A:And one of the things I've learned is that we all have that.
Speaker A:And my clients are very smart, highly accomplished people who've done all kinds of things.
Speaker A:It has nothing to do with how smart you are or how accomplished you are when you're creating something that's really of your soul and like, something that's deeply meaningful to you.
Speaker A:You're gonna go through stuff.
Speaker A:It took me a while to learn that.
Speaker A:Oh, they.
Speaker A:They struggle too.
Speaker A:We all have the same struggles.
Speaker A:And that's the benefit of being a coach for so long, is it?
Speaker A:I hope that I'm able to normalize it for people.
Speaker A:No, this isn't you.
Speaker A:This is not because you're not capable or inept or not smart enough or not a good writer.
Speaker A:This is the job.
Speaker A:We all face it, and it's okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:A lot of it is just empathizing and, you know, just like you said, communicating that.
Speaker B:It's just the part of the process.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter.
Speaker B:Even people who've written multiple books, the next book is easier.
Speaker B:But it's also, you know, still difficult because you still, like you said earlier, you have to consider all the stuff that goes into it.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's not done until it's done.
Speaker B:It's just like a.
Speaker B:It's just got to be a process.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:It can be tough.
Speaker A:My hope, what I'm trying to do with my clients and then the things that I write is help people know themselves.
Speaker A:And I have a program called you'd Artist Knows the Way.
Speaker A:And my goal is that you will know what works for you.
Speaker A:Like, whatever your weird way.
Speaker A:I write at 3 in the morning, or I only can write for 10 minutes at a time, or I, you know, whatever that.
Speaker A:You know that and you own that, versus just trying to adopt all of this advice about productivity that that's out there because if you know what works for you, like, I know really clearly when I'm working on something, when I'm done and what.
Speaker A:However long I've been doing it, I'm just.
Speaker A:I start to get hurry, I start to get impatient.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I start to not care.
Speaker A:And then that's immediately, like, done.
Speaker A:Just walk away, move on, come back tomorrow.
Speaker A:Even something like that, knowing when you're done instead of pushing yourself, stuff like that can, I think, be really valuable for when you take on that next book or that other thing.
Speaker A:It's like, well, I know myself better.
Speaker A:Even if the work is still a challenge, I know how I navigate it best.
Speaker B:I just read a really interesting substack article about.
Speaker B:I think it was a woman that said the headline was something like Stephen King is bullshit or something like that, or something like, about his writing process.
Speaker B:And she didn't mean that she didn't like his books or him as a person.
Speaker B:She doesn't like the idea that creative writing has to be done in a specific way.
Speaker B:Because he writes every day.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean you as a writer need to follow his model and write every day.
Speaker B:Everybody's process is going to be different.
Speaker B:And just because famous people do it in a certain way doesn't mean it's going to work for you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And why do we compare ourselves to someone like Stephen King?
Speaker A:He is a professional writer.
Speaker A:He has been writing, he's written, I don't so many books.
Speaker A:And that is his job.
Speaker A:That is his day job.
Speaker A:So most of us, it's not our day job.
Speaker A:Why would we think that we would be anything like him?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:He did inspire me when I was a kid reading his book.
Speaker A:So I was like, that was a moment when I was reading some of his short stories and I remember putting the book down and going to write because I was like, wow, I'm inspired.
Speaker A:I love Stephen King.
Speaker A:I think he's a badass.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, he's amazing.
Speaker B:It's just you don't necessarily need to follow his route.
Speaker B:His route is very interesting.
Speaker B:I'm listening to On Writing right now.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker B:And so funny.
Speaker A:So good.
Speaker B:He just talks about his path and you definitely don't want to follow his path because he was.
Speaker B:Is addicted to drugs and he had like go into like, you know, this rehab program where he had to get himself straight.
Speaker B:So obviously that's not something I would recommend to people.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Was that, that, that after his accident, after he was run down.
Speaker B:I don't know if I got that far.
Speaker B:This was like when he was starting out, he became like an alcoholic and he was like hiding.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Cuz he.
Speaker B:His drug use and stuff.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:That, that was like the thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The idea of the writer or the artist like that you're kind of this out of control, like drinker and smoker and now it's like now we're out of control with our electrolytes and our green juices.
Speaker B:Definitely healthier, I guess.
Speaker A:Thank goodness.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Can you talk about some of the.
Speaker B:Or if you can think of a success story from somebody that you've worked with as a coach and how that felt to see that process come to fruition.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I've got some of my clients books here.
Speaker A:Part of Me by Paul Wyman.
Speaker A:It's about the parts system.
Speaker A:Montessori Potential by Paula Prushalak.
Speaker A:This is a great.
Speaker A:These are all great.
Speaker A:Align and Refine by Cindy Lusk.
Speaker A:It's about yoga and meditation from somebody who's actual real yogi and then this one, Open to Love by Dr.
Speaker A:Gloria Horsley and Dr.
Speaker A:Frank Powers.
Speaker A:It's about dating when you're older, which I was like, the world needs that.
Speaker A:All of them super smart people, super accomplished, and mostly, you know, mostly work with people writing nonfiction.
Speaker A:But I wrote a book called the Busy Woman's Guide to Writing a World Changing Book.
Speaker A:And I believe these books are really changing the world.
Speaker A:This book, the Montessori Potential.
Speaker A:She's a Montessori, former Montessori head of school.
Speaker A:And she sees that there's a lot of Montessori ish schools out there that are trying to use Montessori, but they're not actually following the model.
Speaker A:So she wanted to write a book that really laid it out for teachers and parents, educators to like.
Speaker A:Here's where this model comes from and here's how it works.
Speaker A:And when you do the actual process of what was laid out, you're going to see great results.
Speaker A:So she's, she, Paula is great.
Speaker A:She, she's been going around speaking about the topic and she started a substack.
Speaker A:My Montessori stories.
Speaker A:Really love working with her and worked with her to write the book.
Speaker A:One of the things that we have to do is know who it's for.
Speaker A:And that's something that people will resist.
Speaker A:It's the same as if you're starting a business or a podcast.
Speaker A:Who am I speaking to?
Speaker A:And I remember when she I really.
Speaker A:And we have a hard time.
Speaker A:It's like I've asked them to like straight strip down naked and walk around the town square.
Speaker A:It's that they resisted that much.
Speaker A:Everybody, even me, like, well, I don't know.
Speaker A:So she I hope it's okay if I tell this story because it's pretty much pretty common.
Speaker A:Wrote a draft and I read it and I was like, I don't know who this is all over the place.
Speaker A:Who is it for?
Speaker A:Because it didn't have a direct kind of, here's what I'm trying to achieve, here's what I'm wanting for you as the reader.
Speaker A:And so she had to go back and redo it and kind of start over with it, really keeping in mind who she was trying to affect and how.
Speaker A:And then it just became much better, sharper, much clearer.
Speaker A:And now she knows who it's for.
Speaker A:And then one of the things that this is the way I think about that, who it's for is think about like if you're an archery, if you're shooting at archery, at a target, there's the middle and then there's another ring, and then another ring and other rings.
Speaker A:So if you.
Speaker A:If you think about each ring as a different audience type or a different kind of person and you're trying to reach them, you're not going to reach them all at once.
Speaker A:And you, you're going to be writing all your zigzagging all over the place.
Speaker A:So you have to identify the main person that you're trying to reach and write to them.
Speaker A:And then all those other people can benefit from it, too.
Speaker A:But it's not that they're not going to read it and enjoy it and get something from it, but you're not trying to write for everybody at once.
Speaker A:It's just really hard to do that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, especially in the beginnings of things, finding who you're trying to focus on first is the most important one.
Speaker B:Because otherwise, like you said, it's just like, all over the place.
Speaker B:I'm trying to talk to you and you and you, you.
Speaker B:But it's like, I think the best advice was write to, like, you're writing to a friend or something.
Speaker B:Like, make sure this person is like a friend and you're trying to explain this thing to them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then it just relaxes you.
Speaker A:You are going to have your more natural voice.
Speaker A:And it helps with the insecurity.
Speaker A:Because for me, when I think about, as I'm going to promote my novel and I'm thinking about, what do I want for the reader?
Speaker A:What do I want them to be feeling and thinking, what would I like to change as a result of this?
Speaker A:And that really makes it less about me and less about, is the book good or am I, you know, am I going to be okay?
Speaker A:It's more like, this is what I want for you.
Speaker A:And I feel like rather than saying, oh, you have to identify your reader, I try to, to let my clients know that.
Speaker A:Well, my perspective is that writing is an act of generosity.
Speaker A:You're giving something to a reader.
Speaker A:It's if you're journaling, that's great.
Speaker A:That's not for somebody else.
Speaker A:That's an act of generosity to yourself.
Speaker A:But writing for somebody else is about writing for them.
Speaker A:And this is for you.
Speaker A:This is what I want for you.
Speaker A:And I'm going to make an effort to be clear and honest and heartfelt in what I'm sharing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I love the idea of it being an act of generosity, because why else would we do it?
Speaker B:I mean, there's no other reason to do it.
Speaker B:I mean, I guess as a creative act, it could work, but why not?
Speaker B:While doing this creative act, have it impact other people in the same way that it's impacting you, Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you're.
Speaker A:You want to move them.
Speaker A:And I would say that the people that I work with want to be writers because there are a lot of people who are writing a book to.
Speaker A:For their business or for some reason just to kind of get their information out.
Speaker A:And that's valid, that's fine.
Speaker A:But they don't ever want to write.
Speaker A:They don't.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:These are the people who might be using AI to write their books.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:My clients, it's been a dream of theirs to be a writer and to write a book for their whole life.
Speaker A:So that's kind of that thing about if you want to write, you should follow it because it's there for a reason.
Speaker A:You might have something to say that you didn't know, or again, you might change in a way that you didn't know you needed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The other alternative is to hire a ghostwriter and have them write it for you.
Speaker B:If you don't want to write yourself, that's a fast track way to get your idea out there with your voice and all that.
Speaker B:But, you know, you don't have to do the technicality of all the writing.
Speaker A:It's super expensive to hire a ghost.
Speaker B:That's like, well, expensive of time or expensive for money.
Speaker B:So you got one choice or the other.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if you have the money and you don't want to write, ghost writing is always a possibility.
Speaker A:I want to just follow up, back up with Paula because we've been working together for a while and helped her get the book out.
Speaker A:She got a book deal right away, which was great.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then helping her promote it and helping her launch her substack.
Speaker A:I'm working with her now on her writing and how much more clear she is, how much more she knows about who she wants to reach, what she wants to say.
Speaker A:And so the book was just kind of a start.
Speaker A:The book was this real training ground for her to refine her ideas and refine how she wants to communicate.
Speaker A:So now she's just like, she's got so much more strength and direction and clarity as a writer.
Speaker A:It's really satisfying to see somebody develop like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that's one of the benefits of a coach.
Speaker B:Not, not to plug yourself or the idea of a coach, but a coach helps you, you know, think through things in a way that progresses you forward.
Speaker B:It's not like a scam or anything.
Speaker B:It's like a way to make yourself better in the way that you specifically hire a coach for, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You mentioned earlier, like, we just don't know everything ourselves.
Speaker A:And I really like working with people who help me see what I don't.
Speaker A:And I was working with my marketing coach this morning, and I was like, here's the.
Speaker A:All the things I want to do.
Speaker A:And she's like, here's what I want you to start with.
Speaker A:And I was like.
Speaker A:Then I was like, this is why I hired you, because you're, you know, I'm not going to just do the same thing I've been doing.
Speaker A:I would like some different results.
Speaker A:I want to see what else is possible.
Speaker A:So it's exactly that point of, without somebody else, I would just be doing the same thing.
Speaker A:And I kind of like it when people challenge me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So both for accountability and motivation and new ideas are all good reasons to.
Speaker B:To find somebody.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:I think the most important thing is find somebody who works for you and not just anybody, Right?
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's a real.
Speaker A:I think, you know, like, you just have a feeling.
Speaker A:Communication is a big part of it.
Speaker A:How do they communicate?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm lucky.
Speaker A:I've had a lot of great coaches and a lot of great support over the years.
Speaker A:I wouldn't be where I am without it.
Speaker B:And then I'm sure that your.
Speaker B:Your clients would say the same thing about you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Ideally, I hope so.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I do my best.
Speaker A:I'm always learning and really seek to be the kind of coach that I want to have.
Speaker A:I really want to feel that somebody's on my side, really rooting for me, that they're all in on helping me.
Speaker A:And so that's what I try to deliver for my clients.
Speaker A:I really, I.
Speaker A:I love them.
Speaker A:Kevin.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:When I started coaching and I.
Speaker A:I was working at the bookstore, and it was great, but it was also really intense.
Speaker A:Just encountering the public all the time.
Speaker A:Downtown Denver.
Speaker A:It was just tough.
Speaker A:And when I first started working with my clients, the first client went home after our intake session, and I just was so.
Speaker A:I was like, I love her.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I get to love the people I work with, and it.
Speaker A:It just feels great to respect them and love them and help them meet their.
Speaker A:Meet their creative goals.
Speaker A:It's really fulfilling.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's awesome.
Speaker B:Can you talk a little bit about your.
Speaker B:Your creative retreats?
Speaker B:Because I know that's like, an interesting idea.
Speaker B:A lot of people have ideas like that, but they don't really act on them.
Speaker B:So can you talk about how you kind of made it possible?
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was doing a leadership training program.
Speaker A:It was a coactive leadership model, which is also.
Speaker A:The coach training that I have is coactive.
Speaker A:And so the coactive leadership training was a year for retreats in California, and it was about leading with somebody else, leading with others, and it was a great training.
Speaker A:And so in between the retreats, we would have homework and some of the things were designing leadership experiences.
Speaker A:And one of the things that I did with my boyfriend at the time was hosting dinner parties where conversation was the focus and how do we lead conversations?
Speaker A:And then we had to lead something with somebody else.
Speaker A:So I ended up leading two, two workshops in London with the two people from London.
Speaker A:I'm going to do one, I'll do two.
Speaker A:I'm kind of crazy like that.
Speaker A:But it was one of my friends, Giga, who she had said, oh, I met this really cool person at this conference who lives in the south of France, and she runs a cooking school and a B and B, and she's really cool.
Speaker A:And I said, let's.
Speaker A:What if we did a workshop there?
Speaker A:So we did.
Speaker A:We called it Journey of the Senses.
Speaker A:And we went to Arles and we had.
Speaker A:My mom was the very first person who signed up.
Speaker A:It was so great.
Speaker A:I loved that.
Speaker A:And we had a blast.
Speaker A:And it worked and we actually profited.
Speaker A:And I thought, this is great.
Speaker A:So I did another one.
Speaker A:I did a writing one in Paris and it just seemed to work.
Speaker A:And then I wrote a book about how to do that.
Speaker A:Leading Tours for Fun and profit.
Speaker A:And I just kept doing it.
Speaker A:And like, we kind of along the way, before we realized what's happening.
Speaker A:What was happening was it was a way for me to go to France every year and continue, like, my French studies and show and share the things that I loved.
Speaker A:But also it helped pay for me to go to France and do all the research for my historical novel.
Speaker A:So, you know, like, later I was like, oh, that was kind of clever.
Speaker A:But I didn't do it for that reason.
Speaker A:I did it.
Speaker A:What I discovered, though, is that leading the workshops was actually really hard and challenging.
Speaker A:And I considered it like leadership boot camps.
Speaker A:So I kept learning.
Speaker A:Like, I kept learning about the French culture and French language.
Speaker A:I also kept learning about how to be a good leader.
Speaker A:And there's just so many things that I've developed in the 20 years that I've been doing it.
Speaker A:But one of the things that changed a few years ago was I had this idea to do a workshop in Paris and to invite some friends to lead it with me.
Speaker A:And that worked really well.
Speaker A:I had no idea how it was going to work financially.
Speaker A:And then on a walk, it all downloaded how to do it, and I figured it out and it worked great.
Speaker A:And it became.
Speaker A:It was so much more fun to do it with other people.
Speaker A:Like, way more fun.
Speaker A:Way more fun.
Speaker A:So that's been better doing that in Paris with others.
Speaker A:And then one of the people that I co lead with is Koja Kona.
Speaker A:She's a Dutch artist and sketchbook keeper.
Speaker A:She co founded Sketchbook Skool.
Speaker A:And when I was in Lisbon researching my novel a couple of years ago, I was like, lisbon is so great.
Speaker A:I really loved it here and there's a reason and I should come back.
Speaker A:Maybe Koja would want to co lead a workshop with me.
Speaker A:So I texted her, do you want to do something in Lisbon?
Speaker A:And she said yes.
Speaker A:So we did something last year and it was even more fun.
Speaker A:It was so much fun, and the food is great and the city is fabulous and the people had so much fun.
Speaker A:So that.
Speaker A:That's called Capture the Lisbon.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:We're doing two this April.
Speaker A:And I think a big part of making them successful is, you know, Kevin, I had no idea.
Speaker A:This is something I learned over the years because, as you know, I'm kind of.
Speaker A:I think of myself as a creative kook.
Speaker A:I'm just doing all this creative, kooky stuff.
Speaker A:Some people would think that's flaky, just all the different things that I've done.
Speaker A:But it turns out I'm actually really good at organizing things or helping people organize their ideas, helping people organize their time, and then organizing these programs.
Speaker A:Something that actually is a skill that I have.
Speaker A:So being able to do that and then doing it with somebody else allows it to be really fun.
Speaker A:And the whole point, the people who come on these, it's.
Speaker A:It's usually about filling a sketchbook or just more creative play.
Speaker A:The job really requires that we are having fun because that was one year I had a really terrible time.
Speaker A:Like, all these terrible things happened at once when I was leading.
Speaker A:It was just awful.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh, like my job really is like kind of set the space and create all these experiences, but my job is to enjoy it, because nobody wants to go to France and have a grumpy, cranky leader who's not having fun.
Speaker A:So that was one of the surprising things that I learned was, oh, I'm here to model how to just let.
Speaker A:Let my enthusiasm and sense of playfulness come out and Invite people to play with us.
Speaker A:So the one that we did last year was really great.
Speaker A:We got great feedback.
Speaker A:The feedback was very positive and also gave some suggestions, which I think is the best feedback.
Speaker A:Here's what worked and here's what you could also do.
Speaker A:So that takes a lot of time and effort to create.
Speaker A:Again, same with anything.
Speaker A:The marketing is the hardest part, and filling them is the biggest work, I think.
Speaker A:But so far, so good.
Speaker A:We've just launched the two we're doing in Paris this fall.
Speaker A:We're doing Paris Sketchbook, and then we're doing one called Sharpen your creative edge for a smaller group.
Speaker A:And that is by application.
Speaker A:And we're going to be focusing on what people want to learn versus saying here's what we're going to teach you.
Speaker A:So everybody applies and tells us what their creative edge is.
Speaker A:I want to learn composition, I want to learn contrast, or I want to learn this.
Speaker A:And we'll design the curriculum around them, and it'll be much more intensive and more of like a working studio than a workshop where they're just learning random stuff.
Speaker B:I really love the idea of being a creative kook because I have so many ideas and I.
Speaker B:There's just not enough time to work on everything.
Speaker B:So you gotta.
Speaker B:One of the things you have to do when you have that impulse is to just figure out which ones are either lighting you up the most or gonna make the biggest impact that can attract people.
Speaker B:So it's like, how do I take this creative energy and apply it towards things in a productive way?
Speaker A:Well, and don't you think decision making is one of the hardest things that we have to deal with in life?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Decision as a creative person.
Speaker A:Chris Gillebeau, I think it was in his book $100 Startup, he talks about a decision matrix and having a set of criteria that you use for making decisions.
Speaker A:So whether you know what's most profitable or what's most meaningful to me or what do I know, people will let.
Speaker A:Like, how you make decisions is something I think helps us for that.
Speaker A:And you're.
Speaker A:You're pretty young too.
Speaker A:I mean, I think it's.
Speaker A:I would think of it as more like, what do I want to do first?
Speaker A:What am I want to do now?
Speaker A:Because, like, this novel that's coming out, this was in the works for 15 years.
Speaker A:It was there.
Speaker A:So if you stay with it and just keep doing stuff, you'll.
Speaker A:You'll be able to do all the really potent ideas that are truly meaningful for you, and you're a creative kook.
Speaker A:Too.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:You are?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That reminds me of the.
Speaker B:There's a book about Jim Henson called Make Art, Make Money, where it talks about how he worked on all these different projects in order to fund his creative work.
Speaker B:So he's working on these projects so that he can, you know, go and do Fraggle Rock and stuff like that.
Speaker B:So just find out what you can do in order to support yourself as a creative person and use that to propel yourself forward.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And having your energy, your creative energy for your own self.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because our creativity is just not going to stop.
Speaker A:It's going to go somewhere in our cooking or our relationships or creating problems for ourselves.
Speaker A:So giving it something to do that we want to do, I think, is.
Speaker A:Is where we want to be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Point it towards something productive instead of, you know, just.
Speaker B:Just like you were saying with the Archers, aiming for a target audience.
Speaker B:This is the same thing where it's.
Speaker B:Instead of figuring out who your audience is, you figure out what you need to work on, because you can have all those different shots going all over the board.
Speaker A:I think it's cool that the idea that it's our side projects that are the things that take off, not the, you know, things that we're just like, I'm so into this.
Speaker A:I can't not do it.
Speaker A:I just have to do this.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That's the thing that has that kind of energy that people are attracted to, not necessarily the practice.
Speaker B:The thing that's, like.
Speaker B:It's, like, poking at you, like, constantly, like, okay, let me see what this looks like.
Speaker B:If I were to kind of try to work on that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it may or may not work.
Speaker B:You only find out by either saying, okay, this is what I'm going to do now, or, you know, okay, this can wait.
Speaker A:I think you have the right attitude.
Speaker A:You've said this a couple times.
Speaker A:Just like, well, let's see.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No one knows what's going to happen.
Speaker B:You know, like life.
Speaker B:Life is life, and stuff is going to happen or not happen.
Speaker B:And you.
Speaker B:You can do your best to kind of just point it in the direction that you have the feeling it's going to work for you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:I have a few more questions left.
Speaker B:Do you know anyone personally who also runs a standout creative business, and what did they do to stand out?
Speaker A:I think this is a really interesting question.
Speaker A:And the standout business, I think it's.
Speaker A:It's not easy to achieve.
Speaker A:But when you sent the question to me, I thought the first person I thought of was a really close friend of mine, Tanya Reichley, who lives in Ireland.
Speaker A:And her, her business is called Dancing with the Wild.
Speaker A:And she, she just, she's.
Speaker A:She's not really a person who's like doing all the marketing things or following all of the formulas.
Speaker A:She's very connected to her Celtic heritage and to sharing that in pilgrimages and books.
Speaker A:And she publishes something called the Daily Sacred act, which I think she's been doing for five or more years, daily sending out this missive.
Speaker A:And it's incredible.
Speaker A:It's inspiring and reminds me and the people that work with her about staying connected to our heritage and honoring our ancestors and honoring the earth and the cycles of the earth.
Speaker A:So she really figured out how to make it work for herself.
Speaker A:She, she.
Speaker A:I think she has a.
Speaker A:I don't know if she has an mba.
Speaker A:She does have a business degree and she was in the corporate world for, you know, when she first started out and then kind of found this path and really made it work, but not in a businessy kind of way.
Speaker A:So it's, it's.
Speaker A:I'm really impressed by how successful she is and how she's always stays true to herself and her, her work.
Speaker A:She will, she, she.
Speaker A:So she stands out to me as somebody who is successful on her own terms and with great integrity.
Speaker B:I think one interesting thing about honing in on something very, very specific like heritage of Celtic.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Is that by focusing on that, it's becoming more universal somehow.
Speaker B:I don't know why this works, but the more specific of a thing you're passionate about, the more people are likely to be like, excited or interested in it.
Speaker B:I don't know what it is.
Speaker A:Well, you're really reaching the people who are looking for that too.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just put yourself out there and see what comes is sometimes the best strategy to stand out because you're just doing it in a way that no one else is.
Speaker A:You know, Kevin, some of the things people say about what works to succeed, I'm always just like, kind of roll my eyes like.
Speaker A:But it's actually true.
Speaker A:You hear people talk about content marketing and putting stuff out there and being consistent.
Speaker A:So she, she's been doing a daily email for years.
Speaker A:And same with my, my friend and colleague Koja.
Speaker A:She's been doing her weekly YouTube video for 10 years.
Speaker A:So, yeah, she's really successful because she's staying with it and, and doing it and is reliable and that.
Speaker A:That builds over time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oftentimes the people who are successful are just the ones who are left Standing after everyone else has already quit.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because it's true if you quit, you're not going to make it, obviously.
Speaker B:So you just got to keep on going or refining what you're doing in order to make it the thing that works for you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What is one extraordinary book, podcast, documentary or tool that has had the biggest impact on your journey?
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:One.
Speaker A:How can I choose one?
Speaker B:What was the first thing that came to mind?
Speaker A:The first thing that came to mind is the person that I'm learning from now.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:She's.
Speaker A:Her name is Joanna Penn.
Speaker A:Joe Penn.
Speaker A:You know, she's a British.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Author and podcaster, and she just disseminates an incredible amount of information.
Speaker A:So I've been publishing books for a long time, but every.
Speaker A:Everything changes.
Speaker A:Even since my last one, six years ago, so much has changed.
Speaker A:So since October, I've been buffing up on the landscape, the publishing landscape, AI in publishing.
Speaker A:And I've been listening to her podcast and then I subscribed to her Patreon and it is not expensive, but the value of that and her monthly Q and A is like.
Speaker A:I sent in a question last month and she answered it.
Speaker A:It was super helpful.
Speaker A:I've been listening to all the.
Speaker A:The former patron, only Q and A's that she's done.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I can't even tell you how much I've learned from her.
Speaker A:So much.
Speaker A:So much.
Speaker A:She's amazing.
Speaker A:She has a podcast, it's the Creative Pen podcast, and then she also does one for her patrons in Patreon.
Speaker A:So then she also has another podcast that she had me on and she's bringing it back about travel and books.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:I love Joanna.
Speaker A:I just love her.
Speaker A:And, you know, she's so.
Speaker A:She sounds so cheerful and happy all the time and I'm.
Speaker A:I don't know, I.
Speaker A:Very grateful for her and influenced by her work.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've listened to some of her podcasts and they're like, extremely detailed and, you know, timely and all, all the things.
Speaker B:And she's very good at being a host, too, and just talking about her journey and other people's journeys.
Speaker A:Yeah, she's.
Speaker A:That's a great.
Speaker A:She's a great example of being, you know, obviously a smart business person and also that, that enthusiasm that we were talking about, she's just really into it and learning herself and sharing what she's learning and how she's operating her.
Speaker A:Her writing and publishing business too.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I just learned so much from her.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:What do you think makes a creative business stand out and what is one piece of advice that you would give another creative person based on your journey, on how they can try to stand out?
Speaker A:I think it's really hard to stand out.
Speaker A:There's more and more out there.
Speaker A:But I'm just looking at the notes that I wrote.
Speaker A:I think it's something that we've alluded to and talked about is being.
Speaker A:Being yourself.
Speaker A:So there are the kind of formulaic things or the general practice rules of being consistent or focus only on one thing, and some of those are useful, but I think you still have to really be yourself within it.
Speaker A:The people who I really admire are very.
Speaker A:They just are themselves.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They're not apologizing, they're revealing themselves.
Speaker A:They're sharing who they are and what they care about, and just that enthusiasm, that lifelong commitment to something and their enthusiasm.
Speaker A:So I guess authenticity is what makes a business stand out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:If you try to be somebody else, it's not one.
Speaker B:It's going to be very, like, draining.
Speaker B:First of all, Good point.
Speaker B:Trying to beat somebody else.
Speaker B:And, you know, you want to attract the people that are relatable to you versus, you know, just anybody.
Speaker B:Because if you're attracting the wrong people, you're also draining your energy.
Speaker B:So it's about this exchange of, you know, energy that's like how you want to show up and how you want other people to see you as you're showing up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So true.
Speaker B:Can you give the listeners a challenge that they can take action on right away to start standing out?
Speaker A:I really like free writing and writing, like to a prompt and writing without stopping or thinking and just really letting yourself flow with a timer.
Speaker A:A timer can kind of make us speed up.
Speaker A:So it's not about speed, but about just staying with it and writing.
Speaker A:Because if you set a timer for 15 minutes, the first 10 minutes might be.
Speaker A:Who knows what you're going to really get to some good stuff in those last minutes.
Speaker A:So I would set a timer, and I think this is helpful for anybody in any.
Speaker A:No matter where they're at the prompt.
Speaker A:I have two prompts that are kind of the same, but just worded a little differently.
Speaker A:What's true for me.
Speaker A:And then the other prompt is what I really want to say.
Speaker B:Hmm.
Speaker A:And I think that second one especially helps get to the honesty of like, okay, here's what I really think, here's what I really believe.
Speaker A:Here's what I really care about, especially if you're stuck or you're just.
Speaker A:How do I.
Speaker A:How do I articulate what I care about?
Speaker A:What I really want to say can, can kind of remove some of those layers that prevent us from being honest or authentic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think we, most of us, I mean there has to be a censor, but most of us censor even the things that aren't really dangerous to say or, you know.
Speaker B:Oh, you know, just out there to say.
Speaker B:We're just scared of people seeing us in a way that we don't agree with or whatever it is.
Speaker B:But the only way to, to really get people to notice who you are is by putting yourself out there.
Speaker B:All of your.
Speaker B:Whatever that might be.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What you really care about.
Speaker A:And I, I was doing this yesterday with.
Speaker A:For my novel.
Speaker A:Like I mentioned this earlier.
Speaker A:Why is this meaningful to me?
Speaker A:And I, I didn't get.
Speaker A:I, I got, you know, some things out.
Speaker A:I'm like, I need to keep going with that to get to like, I, I want to get to like for something like this, like to the thing that makes me cry because then it's like, that's where it's like right at the heart of what I really care about and what I really want for the world versus like the smart or the clever or the top of mind ideas.
Speaker A:Like I want to get.
Speaker A:I want to drop down.
Speaker A:So yeah, I'm doing that exercise myself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think the, one of the best ways to do that is just like a known exercise is to just keep on asking why.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if it doesn't feel deep enough, like why.
Speaker B:Just keep on asking yourself why.
Speaker B:Eventually you'll get to the actual root of what it is.
Speaker B:Because we all start at the surface no matter what it is.
Speaker B:We've been trained to filter ourselves.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So just keep on asking until you're like, oh, okay, this is the thing that is me and is going to help other people too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and getting to those things that are just like, oh, it really is my ego.
Speaker A:Because I always wanted to be a writer and now I really feel like a writer.
Speaker A:You know, like that might be like feel like an ego thing, but it's actually like a, A truth or kind of coming home to like this is who I really am.
Speaker A:I've always wanted this and now I've done it.
Speaker A:And that's why.
Speaker A:Because now I'm really me.
Speaker B:That's all we, we're aiming for when we're making our things right.
Speaker B:Just to get our us out there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or else why else you doing it, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, Cynthia, this has been really amazing talking to you again.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker B:We could talk for hours on creativity.
Speaker B:I'm sure.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Can people, where can people find you and keep up to date with what you've been up to and what you're going to be doing in the future?
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Everything is accessible on my website.
Speaker A:My company is called Original impulse, so it's original impulse.com and there you can find the different substacks that I do and my bookshop, which we're recording this on February 3rd.
Speaker A:The bookshop will be up later this month in the next week or so, so all of my books will be available there, too.
Speaker A:A lot of people are more interested in buying directly from authors now, so I'm making that possible with all my books.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:And then just one more reminder of your your upcoming book is coming out.
Speaker B:When?
Speaker A:June 9th.
Speaker A:Oh, it's so exciting.
Speaker A:June 9th.
Speaker A:It's called Her Lisbon Colors.
Speaker A:It will be available first through me.
Speaker A:I'm going to do a fun limited edition with some fun things that will be with it and then it will be available everywhere else as well.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, thanks again for coming on, Cynthia.
Speaker B:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker A:My pleasure.
Speaker A:Thanks so much, Kevin.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Bye.
Speaker A:Bye.
Speaker B:Cynthia is not just helping writers finish their books.
Speaker B:She's helping them trust their voice, stick with the messy parts, and finally get their words out into the world.
Speaker B:Now it's your turn.
Speaker B:Got a story that's been sitting on the shelf.
Speaker B:An idea you can't shake but haven't followed through on?
Speaker B:Head to standoutcreatives.com and book a free strategy session.
Speaker B:You'll make a simple plan, get you unstuck, and help you finally move forward.
Speaker B:Because your words matter and someone out there needs to hear them.
Speaker B:Let's do it together.
