8: Creative Career Success: How Self-Published Authors and Creatives Can Build a Thriving Business with Russell Nohelty

Host: 00:00:01

Welcome to another episode of the Standout Creatives.

Host: 00:00:04

Today I'm joined by the talented and prolific Russell Nolte, a USA Today best selling author, comic book creator and creative entrepreneur.

Host: 00:00:13

He's written over 40 novels and raised nearly a million dollars through crowdfunding.

Host: 00:00:18

Russell's career spans comics, novels and co founding ventures like Writer MBA to help authors thrive in today's ever changing publishing world.

Host: 00:00:27

Russell combines his storytelling skills with a deep understanding of marketing and audience building.

Host: 00:00:32

He shares his insights through his substack the Author Stack, helping authors and writers grow sustainable careers.

Host: 00:00:41

From successful crowdfunding campaigns to navigating self publishing, Russell has done it all and he's here with us to share his expertise today.

Host: 00:00:49

Russell, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into your journey and what you're doing now?

Russell Nolte: 00:00:55

Sure.

Russell Nolte: 00:00:56

Thanks for having me.

Russell Nolte: 00:00:58

I started in college, I wanted to go to film school and I ended up in Jace Journalism school at University of Maryland.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:07

And after that I worked in On Capitol Hill for about six months before I went in on my own.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:14

I was like, I'm just going to do, I'm just going to do my own, my own thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:18

And so I did commercials.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:21

I went to Denmark on a movie once.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:24

That's the second, second a c.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:27

I, I wrote my own movie, I directed my own shorts and I directed my own stuff.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:34

I never really had tons of success with that.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:38

And then I started doing, but then I started doing publishing.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:42

But while I was doing that, I did a blog called the LA Grind.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:45

When I moved to LA in: 2000

Russell Nolte: 00:01:57

So.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:58

No, that's not true.

Russell Nolte: 00:01:59

It was: 2008

Russell Nolte: 00:02:00

It's 15 years, 15 years have been documenting my journey and I kind of, what my goal has always been is to create as much of an unbroken chain of what it means to live a creative life and build a creative business as I possibly can.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:18

Um, when I first started doing books, at least I people did not believe that you could do, stay true to your art and also make money.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:32

And I feel like if I've done nothing else, like I make weird books, man.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:37

I made, I drew a book about a pickle going through a black hole once called Gherkin Boy.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:44

Like I made a book called, I drew a book called how not to Invade Earth.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:48

Like, I've made very esoteric comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:51

I've made very mainstream comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:53

I've done anthologies.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:55

As I mentioned, I directed movies.

Russell Nolte: 00:02:57

Like I've done all of this stuff and like I leave a lot of money on the table, don't get me wrong.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:03

ike a six figure author since: 2017

Russell Nolte: 00:03:10

I've never dipped below that and like just making very weird stuff.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:14

And recently I part partnered with Monica Lionel who's another publishing expert and we started doing very mainstream courses and then we have slowly gotten way more esoteric.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:30

I have a book about capital, about how to thrive in a capitalist dystopia coming out as a writer.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:36

I have another book that I just finished called Publishing is Broken.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:39

But it doesn't have to break you.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:41

Like it's just a lot of what I think the actual problem is.

Russell Nolte: 00:03:49

So it's a lot of like systemic issues and it's been basically 15 years of building these small building blocks till I get to this place where I can have a very weird conversation with people which is like, which I appreciate and I hope one day someone will say like this is one of the greatest collections of like what it means to live a.

Russell Nolte: 00:04:14

Create.

Russell Nolte: 00:04:15

Build a creative business.

Russell Nolte: 00:04:16

Live a creative life like in human history.

Russell Nolte: 00:04:20

That's a.

Russell Nolte: 00:04:21

housand posts on the author's: 1200

Russell Nolte: 00:04:31

It's just like courses and interviews and just.

Russell Nolte: 00:04:36

It's always the thing I'm really interested in is like how can you lead a creative life and make the money you want without burning out or selling your soul?

Host: 00:04:47

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest issues with creative people is they don't know how to balance their art with trying to make money in order to sustain it.

Host: 00:04:59

It's not about making money and becoming like a capitalist pig or whatever.

Host: 00:05:02

It's about, you know, trying.

Host: 00:05:04

Trying to do it enough so that you can live the life you want to lead while also telling your unique stories or perspectives.

Host: 00:05:11

I think.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:11

Yeah, well, it's like, is the money the means or the ends?

Russell Nolte: 00:05:15

And I think most business and most business writers like the money is the point.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:21

So like they don't actually care what they sell.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:24

They, they might want to sell a very good product.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:27

They may be proud of the product, but like the end is not the product.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:32

The money is the end goal.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:34

It's like when you invest in a 401k like you don't care what they're making.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:40

Like for the most part you just want the money when you retire.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:45

And in the same way a lot of people just say I'm going to build a business.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:49

And you're like, well what do you want to build?

Russell Nolte: 00:05:51

I want to make a million dollars.

Russell Nolte: 00:05:53

And you're like, okay, well it's actually pretty easy to make a bunch of money if you don't care what you're making because you would say hey, there's this big problem and like it's in a trillion dollar industry and like all I have to do is X, Y and Z and like then I put some ads to it, jam through and it makes money unfortunately.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:16

And some creators are like that.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:18

They, what they, they love is the process.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:21

I know a lot of creators who are like I will write anything as long as I'm writing.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:27

And so like but most, a lot of creatives and a lot of heart based entrepreneurs.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:33

So like people that live like this kind of creativity course creators, even like some care based people like YouTubers, like all of these people, the money is not the end.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:47

The money is the means.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:49

The what they're making is the end.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:51

And it's an entirely different way of going about your life.

Russell Nolte: 00:06:56

And if you are someone who uses money as a means to be, to make something, not make something as a means to make money, literally every piece of business advice makes no sense to you because you're like, I can't just do that.

Russell Nolte: 00:07:12

I can't just look at an industry and see what is trending because like it has nothing to do with the thing that I'm making.

Russell Nolte: 00:07:19

So like what really when you're make when, when money is the means to the end, what we have to do is say how can some of this money go towards making the next product, but how can another portion of this money go towards finding the people who are going to resonate with this product?

Russell Nolte: 00:07:38

And it's a very different way of like existing in the world than almost every piece of business advice that has ever come up before.

Russell Nolte: 00:07:49

And most business and most writing advice that I find still to this day is like find a pain point, find a, find an audience and like make things that is going to get the most traction because then that will come back and you'll be able to make money and it's like, and then you'll be able to write, which is great.

Russell Nolte: 00:08:06

Unless like the writing's not the end, like the message is the end or like if like you actually do care about like writing only in fantasy or you want to write a specific kind of story, like all of those things, every piece of business advice breaks down.

Russell Nolte: 00:08:23

And when you really come down to like why creators Hate business.

Russell Nolte: 00:08:30

I think it's because up until even today, they are taught that their product is a means to make money.

Russell Nolte: 00:08:42

And in reality, money is a means to make product.

Russell Nolte: 00:08:47

And unless you know that difference, like, nothing, like, everything's going to seem ridiculous to you.

Host: 00:08:55

Yeah, I think there's a very good book called Make Art, Make Money.

Host: 00:08:59

I don't know if you've read it.

Host: 00:09:00

It's about Jim Henson's journey and how he used his art to make money in order to continue to make art.

Host: 00:09:08

So, like you were saying, it's a way to fuel your creativity even more.

Host: 00:09:12

And sometimes you'll have to do something that's not quite creative, but it is a way for you to be able to continue to do it.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:21

Absolutely.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:22

And, like, part of it is, I call it the Bullseye method, which is, like, you have this very weird thing, is, like, your main thing you care about, but you slowly expand out to, like.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:32

So I had this book, Ichabod Jones, Monster Hunter.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:35

It's very weird, but, like, it is a comic and it's a graphic novel series.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:38

And, like, technically it's 16 issues, but, like, it's very weird.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:44

Like, but everyone who likes Ichabod likes the other stuff that I do.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:48

And then I had this series called the Godsverse Chronicles, which is, like, much more mainstream.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:53

Like, people can go, oh, I love that.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:56

A lot of people can.

Russell Nolte: 00:09:57

And, like, then I had this series called the Obsidian Spindle Saga, which is like fairy tales.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:03

And.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:03

But, like, how I do fairy tales.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:05

And then I have this series called Cthulhu Is Hard to Spell, which is about Lovecraft.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:08

And, like, at every stage, like, the goal of that extra ring is to find people who will go to the center.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:16

Because, like, that is my core audience.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:18

People.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:19

But also it allows you to, like, you know, my weird Ichabod books not making 40 grand.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:25

But, like, when I launched the last Cthulhu book, it made 40 grand.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:29

Over 40 grand.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:30

Like, it's not something like, a publisher has never had an interest.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:34

Most publishers haven't had an interest in my more esoteric, weirder books.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:38

Like, Time is a Flat Circle, but, like, the Cthulhu book, everyone, it's, like, very easy to consume.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:44

It is Lovecraft stories about the monsters of Lovecraft.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:48

Like, the first book in the Obsidian Spindle Saga is called the Sleeping Beauty, then the Wicked Witch, then the Fairy Queen, then the Red Rider.

Russell Nolte: 00:10:57

And it's like, okay, the first four books there are, like, tailored.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:00

That someone's like, oh, I like fantasy.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:02

I like Sleeping Beauty.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:04

Oh, I like.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:05

I Like, like weird fairy tale worlds.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:07

Like, so it's.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:08

It, like, is meant to be as expansive as possible while still being something that, like, I care deeply about.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:16

And you're, you're so right.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:18

You have to, like, you have to kind of make this balance or you have to shut up.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:25

That's my rule.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:26

Like, you can make a choice that is, like, not going to make you money or is unlikely to make you money.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:35

But, like, if you make that choice, you can't complain that you're not making money.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:41

Like, just like you, you.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:43

You knew.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:44

It's like, you can, like, you can like, like, you can have a child and, like, complain about that child.

Russell Nolte: 00:11:53

So in the same way, you can, like, have a thing that's not making money, but you can't be like, why are you not making money?

Russell Nolte: 00:11:59

Because, like, there's no world in which you should have made money on, like, a 14th century Scottish loot festival in Sheboygan, Wisconsin.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:12

Like, none of those things are, like, designed to, like, make a lot of money.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:18

You may, there may be an audience of 50 people for it.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:21

And hey, man, if there's 50 people at your audience, you have gotten 100 of that audience.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:26

And that's amazing.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:28

But, like, you can make.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:30

So, like, I'm, I'm very.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:33

What I would like is for artists to understand that every decision that they make has consequences.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:42

They.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:42

It either increases or decreases the audience size.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:46

It either increases or decreases how much someone will spend on the product as well.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:52

So if you know all of these things, what it does is, like, not cheap in the art.

Russell Nolte: 00:12:59

It's.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:00

It says, oh, well, like, the art does need that.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:05

It does need that concession, but it doesn't need this concession.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:10

Like, maybe instead of like a 14th century loot festival, like, set in Cheboygan, Wisconsin, you, like, make something in the Scottish Highlands or you make something that's like, Regency, which is more popular.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:27

Like, you make.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:29

So you make these, these choices.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:30

That's like, okay, the core of my art is that, like, it needs these five things.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:41

Without these five things, it will break.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:43

But in order to get the most people to want to, like, read this thing, what I need to do is, like, make these other 10 concessions because it will get more people to read my work.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:56

And we're making this.

Russell Nolte: 00:13:58

We're making these unconscious decisions.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:02

And I would just like them to be conscious, because if they are conscious, then, like, we have intention.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:09

And when we have intention, then we can start making the career that we want.

Host: 00:14:16

Yeah.

Host: 00:14:16

And especially if you start at the point where you're generating the interest.

Host: 00:14:21

You need interest before you can make money from your thing.

Host: 00:14:24

If you don't have any interest, no one's buying it.

Host: 00:14:26

You're not gonna make a career out of it.

Host: 00:14:28

So, right, you need to generate something that builds enough interest in order to get people to at least see if your writing is even worth reading.

Host: 00:14:37

Because sometimes it's not, right?

Russell Nolte: 00:14:39

It's like you need something that will generate enough revenue for you to live.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:45

Almost every.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:46

I mean, I'm.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:47

I'm a writer, so I deal mostly with writers, although I've dealt with a lot of artists and other creatives.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:52

And I think this is true for every profession.

Russell Nolte: 00:14:54

But it's definitely true for writers, professional writers who do novels.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:00

They have a series that is we.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:03

I call it a signature series.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:04

It's usually 10 books at least a million words that, like, continually brings money to them.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:12

Whether it's like.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:13

Whether it's the Dark Tower, whether it's Game of Thrones and, like, they can do other weird stuff because, like, their main series is making money.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:21

But, like, you know, without.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:24

Without that, they're, like, bouncing back and forth and they have no stability.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:28

With the stability of having one line that's like, okay, I can always fall back on that.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:34

Like, that's.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:35

That.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:35

That's always going to be, like, $50,000 a year or, like, whatever.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:39

Whatever that is by having that, like, a lot of people care about, like, Patreon or Substack or something like that.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:46

Because, like, oh, If I made 20 grand a year and I knew that that 20 grand was coming, how much would that change things?

Russell Nolte: 00:15:55

But, like, it doesn't have to necessarily be there.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:57

It could be a job.

Russell Nolte: 00:15:58

I mean, a lot of writers have jobs.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:00

A lot of creators have jobs.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:01

It could be like, you do consulting work.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:05

It could be, like, you do one big mural for, like, big Pharma a year, and that pays you 400 grand.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:12

And, like, the rest of it, like, you donate everything to indigenous children to, like, make up for the fact that, like, you're, like, selling your soul to work for the big pharma mural.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:23

Mural thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:24

But, like, it has, like, we need to have one.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:27

At least one path that's like, okay, that's going to, like, continually give me revenue.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:35

And then you can either do that again, or you can just, like, be like, okay, now I'm gonna make my weird loot festival.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:44

Or, like, my weird.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:46

I say with writers, I give this example, like, so there's a genre called cozy mystery, which is like, Murder She Wrote, Psych Monk like these Matlock.

Russell Nolte: 00:16:59

Like, these things that are like, well, not Matlock, because it's.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:02

But like, it's.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:03

It's a, like, person makes, like, a usually older woman solving mysteries in, like, this charming, cozy town where, like, nothing really that terrible goes wrong except murder.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:16

And it's like, when you make one of these things, there's a couple of things that are true.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:22

One, if you make it in a coffee shop, a bake shop, or a tea shop, more people read it.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:30

And, like, if it's a paranormal book, if someone is a witch, they just, like, people read it more.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:37

It's more popular, there's more potential readers than if they're like, a psychic or a medium or like, some other kind of paranormal thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:17:48

So, like, does your book have to be set in a yogurt shop?

Russell Nolte: 00:17:58

Or can we set it in one of those three major things?

Russell Nolte: 00:18:01

Because it will then by making no other change to the script, you just, like, now it's not yogurt they're making, it's coffee.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:10

You now, like, are just more popular.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:13

Like, does your.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:15

Does your paranormal person have to be a flame elemental or can they be a witch?

Russell Nolte: 00:18:22

Now you might come back and say, no.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:25

Yogurt is essential to how we design this series.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:29

I'm like, okay, cool.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:31

Like, you now know your book will be significantly less popular because it has a yogurt shop.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:37

And, like, hopefully you are going to make yogurt integral to, like, the book series.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:42

Otherwise, why?

Russell Nolte: 00:18:45

And in the same way, it's like, if your person has to be a flame elemental, like, okay, that's going to make it significantly less, Less, less marketable.

Russell Nolte: 00:18:56

And that is okay as long as you know those two things are true.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:02

Because you could have, before the book ever launched, before you wrote one word, you already determined how successful this series is going to be.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:13

You already gave it a cap.

Host: 00:19:18

Where did you figure out?

Host: 00:19:19

Or I guess, is this, like, common knowledge that these are the specific elements that make a book more popular?

Host: 00:19:25

Is that something that you studied or is it something that circulates?

Host: 00:19:28

Or.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:29

I rely on Monica, my business partner, for a little bit of that.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:32

But also, just, like, there's a place called K Lytics that does analysis of, like, the most popular tropes.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:39

And it's a pretty well known, like, if you ask, if you.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:43

If you went to, like, one board and asked, like, the right person, or, like, you can also go to, like, Amazon and see, like, what is the most popular.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:54

You can go to, like, a book cover designer who designs that.

Russell Nolte: 00:19:58

That genre and See what they're making.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:01

So, like, it's just.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:04

But the witch thing is very common knowledge at this point to like.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:09

And also just if you.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:11

You should be reading in the genre that you make and like, you'll see wow.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:17

Everything is a bake shop.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:19

It's a.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:20

There's a.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:20

Sometimes there's a Jamaican bake shop or a Korean bake shop or a.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:25

Or a.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:25

Or a French bake shop, but it's.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:28

It's always a bake shop.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:31

And that's my dog, so I'm going to let him out now.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:35

Okay.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:36

Out.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:37

Go, go.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:38

Thank you.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:38

Bye.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:39

Bye.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:41

Lasted as long as he could.

Host: 00:20:43

I mean, that was pretty good, right?

Russell Nolte: 00:20:46

That was pretty good.

Russell Nolte: 00:20:48

Longer than most people can listen to me talk about this stuff.

Host: 00:20:50

So how do you stand out from the other books of the same genre if it's all the same genre?

Host: 00:20:58

I know you talk about Kindle Unlimited as the way that if you're included, people are going to download it just because you're getting it for free or whatnot.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:07

Well, but should you?

Russell Nolte: 00:21:09

This is the question.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:10

This is always.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:11

The thing is everyone wants to stand out.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:13

But my question is always, do you want to stand out or do you want to be read?

Russell Nolte: 00:21:20

What is important?

Russell Nolte: 00:21:21

The COVID to be unique or someone to actually read the material that you have inside?

Russell Nolte: 00:21:26

Because if you want someone to read the material inside, it should look like other books that it is.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:32

Like, it's like if you went to buy a hammer and you found something that looked like a shoe, you wouldn't buy a hammer even.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:39

It could be the greatest hammer of all time.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:41

But like, you're not gonna buy the shoe because, like, it's not a hammer.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:46

So if you're going to get something, you should give people that.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:53

There's this adage that I.

Russell Nolte: 00:21:58

I think about a lot, which is you should not be more than two standard deviations from the mean.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:07

So we.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:08

I talk about this in fantasy a lot.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:10

If you ha.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:11

You have to do 80% of a world, probably like 90% has to feel like you already know.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:20

So, like, if you were writing a high fantasy world, you can change 15% of it and to make it really unique.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:30

But if you do not give someone enough grounding that they understand what is happening, then they will just stop reading or they'll get.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:40

Because they'll get confused.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:42

So a thing that writers make a mistake writers make is making their weird.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:47

Every weird idea in book one.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:50

Whereas book one should feel usually like we are in things we already know.

Russell Nolte: 00:22:57

Generally by book seven, you can Then make it as weird as you want.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:02

But you have to, like, slide people in because to.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:07

To like what you're doing.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:08

If you want to have the widest ability to make people.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:14

To have people read you and make a decision about you.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:17

And that's the whole thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:18

Like, we need the maximum amount of people to make decisions about us.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:24

Because if 2 million people make a decision about you, probably 1.8 won't care, and 1 point and point and.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:35

And 1.8 million will not care at all.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:38

Or they'll be like, it's fine.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:40

Like, I'll read it, but like, it.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:42

It's okay.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:43

Like, a hundred thousand will hate it and a hundred thousand will love it.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:47

And, like, that's the game.

Russell Nolte: 00:23:49

Like, the game is just, I need as many people to have an opinion about me as possible, or I need no one to have an opinion about me at all.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:00

And I just need to be so bland that everyone reads me, because everyone who reads this genre reads this thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:07

Like, it has to be so, so inoffensive that, like, it's just motel art.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:13

Does that make sense?

Host: 00:24:14

Yeah.

Host: 00:24:15

So it's just knowing what your.

Host: 00:24:17

Your end goal is essentially the purpose of you creating, right?

Host: 00:24:21

Is it to create, to be creative, which is fine, you don't need to make money from it, or is it to, like you said, have a career?

Host: 00:24:29

And in order to make a career, you need to have as many potential buyers for your thing as possible, right?

Host: 00:24:35

Or else you're not gonna.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:38

I think that you can do this.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:39

I.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:40

I think that either path, you can be successful.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:42

There's two main paths.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:43

So, like, one of them, okay, so this is going to require.

Russell Nolte: 00:24:46

You know what arbitrage is, which is a very complicated term, but let's just say the delta between supply and demand, which is, like, if the supply is a thousand, and a particular market can have like a hundreds could support like, 2,000, the arbitrage is a thousand.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:04

So, like, there's two things that you can be doing in your career.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:08

You can be finding arbitrage.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:11

So, like, how you find arbitrage?

Russell Nolte: 00:25:12

You go on social media, you see what's hot, you tweet a thing, and like, oh, look, because everyone's searching for this thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:19

I'm, like, going and trending upward.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:21

And like, great.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:22

I'm like, I've now taken.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:25

And there are people, I'm sure you can probably name them.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:28

I find them all exhausting.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:29

But that are, like, always in that conversation, no matter what the conversation is.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:35

It's like they ride every wave and they always seem to be getting good traction, but, like, probably not that many people, like, actually care about their take.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:47

They just care that it's a take that is, like, informs them that.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:53

And that's like a reporter.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:56

Like, a reporter who.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:58

Like a beat reporter.

Russell Nolte: 00:25:59

Very rarely is someone like, I really like how they covered that city council meeting on the other side.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:07

It's about building arbitrage.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:10

So everyone has, like, zero net, zero arbitrage, which is like, no one cares about you because no one's made an opinion about you.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:19

And what.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:19

And people like that are like, Dave Barry, stay Barry relevant anymore.

Host: 00:26:26

I mean, to certain people.

Host: 00:26:28

Yes.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:29

Well, but, like, he.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:31

He's a humorous columnist.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:34

A columnist is the other example that I is like you.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:38

So every article they're.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:40

They're making, they're giving a take.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:42

And some people are like, I really like Dave Barry's take.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:46

And some people are like, I don't like that at all.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:48

But the people that are saying, yes, I really like Dave Barry's take, they are opting in and being like, now I'm a Dave Barry fan.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:56

I'm gonna follow Dave Barry.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:57

I'm gonna read his column.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:59

I'm.

Russell Nolte: 00:26:59

I'm buying this paper for Dave Barry.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:02

And so you can have success either way.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:07

But Dave Barry has the harder path at the beginning, because who cares about what Dave Barry thinks?

Russell Nolte: 00:27:17

Like, Dave Barrett, like, when Dave Barry graduated high school, like, who cared what Dave Barry had to say?

Russell Nolte: 00:27:22

Everyone.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:23

Everyone who cared about that city council meeting still cared about that city council meeting the day that Dave Barry graduated high school.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:32

So, like, he could go and say, I'm gonna go cover city council meetings, and boom, he's got an audience right there forever.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:41

But only the audience at the paper has, like, no one.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:46

If he leaves that paper, very few people are going to be like, oh, cool, I'm going to follow you to this.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:51

It's gonna be like, whatever.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:53

Just like city council meeting.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:55

Whoever covers it, covers it.

Russell Nolte: 00:27:56

But, like, over time, Dave Barry, like, his arbitrage grows and grows and grows and grows until he is 10 years on, like, worth.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:08

I don't know how much it's worth.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:09

I'm just gonna say a million dollars.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:11

So, like, he now has bargaining power.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:14

Dave Barry can write fewer columns.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:16

Dave Barry can do.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:17

Can.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:17

Can.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:18

Can, like, negotiate.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:19

Dave Barry makes a hundred times more than he would have 10 years ago.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:23

But what happens is people want to be Dave Barry without.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:27

Do without building the audience that Dave Barry does.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:30

Like, they want to just come out and be like, oh, why is My weird esoteric, like frog crochet not making a billion dollars.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:40

And it's like, well, like, who's, like, who's.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:44

Like, probably 10 people are looking at that.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:47

So, like, are you.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:48

Did you go out to wear frog crochet to like, maybe a knitting festival or like a swap meet and like, find.

Russell Nolte: 00:28:54

Did you like, go into forums?

Russell Nolte: 00:28:56

Did you do any work to try and find this person to show them why you're frog croquet?

Russell Nolte: 00:29:01

I'm only saying that because I have a little frog croquet thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:04

I don't know why I said it, but like, it's.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:08

But this is not going to be in a supermarket or not a super, like a toy store.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:13

Like, because it will.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:14

It can't be mass produced.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:16

Like, so like it's not going to ever make it to a toy store.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:18

Whereas, like this, this like amazingly brave Klaus the tiger can be so like this can just sit in a toy store and like the same amount of people are going to buy it constantly.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:34

But if you, if you can make an audience, if you can find an audience for your frog crochet, suddenly you've built something that no one else can replicate.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:44

Because it's your audience.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:45

Your people are buying it.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:47

They are buying in for your take.

Russell Nolte: 00:29:49

But you are not able to start being the person who has the weird take unless you are willing to go out and find people who will listen to your weird take and opt into it.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:08

Because there's just that there's not a wave of people that are searching for psychological mind screws comic books.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:17

So you got to find them.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:18

You got to go to where they are.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:20

And this is, I think, is one of the biggest mistakes that creators make.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:24

They.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:25

They think that posting online is audience building when really it's nothing.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:33

Because, like, who is going to see it, who's going to look for it, who's going to read it?

Russell Nolte: 00:30:38

Who wants the.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:40

There are people that want the esoteric take, but you have to do the work of gathering them together.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:45

And now once you gather them together, suddenly you have way more power than this person over here.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:51

Because this person has to keep covering city council meetings every day of their life.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:57

They have to.

Russell Nolte: 00:30:58

If they ever stop going to the city council meeting and recording the minutes, they don't get paid.

Russell Nolte: 00:31:04

But like, you can do more now.

Russell Nolte: 00:31:07

But like, they can do more at the beginning.

Russell Nolte: 00:31:11

And it's just making.

Russell Nolte: 00:31:12

So it's not like, do you want success or do you not want success?

Russell Nolte: 00:31:15

It's really like, do you want to find arbitrage or Build arbitrage and like one of them is going to lead to different levels of success at different times and mean more to a different group of people.

Host: 00:31:30

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it because you can, you can have a built in audience but you're part of somebody else's platform.

Host: 00:31:36

Like social media is, is mostly that or you can kind of build it from the ground up.

Host: 00:31:41

And I think that's where most people even today is still.

Host: 00:31:45

Email is still the number one way to get people to continue to follow you because you have total control of the people who are on your list.

Russell Nolte: 00:31:53

Yeah, absolutely.

Russell Nolte: 00:31:54

I mean the best is in person, gather in person and then email and then like text message, probably text.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:02

And then like it goes, starts to significantly downhill.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:06

And it's only because these platforms, they own the algorithm.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:11

Like unless you own, like unless you own the chain of custody between you and your person, like they can, it can be taken away from you.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:19

So it's like not, it's not the person who follows you on social media that doesn't want to follow you.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:25

It's the social media platform that's saying you don't get access to this person anymore.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:31

And so like why you want, the more you can control that local farmer's market is great because.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:40

Hey, you see Becky every week.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:42

Hey look, here's your greens, Becky.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:43

I got, I got them for you.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:45

Like you can actually see them.

Russell Nolte: 00:32:47

And then the, everything beyond that is like, how can I, how can I have direct communication with this person without an algorithm getting in the way?

Host: 00:32:59

Yeah, I think in the beginning it was very easy.

Host: 00:33:03

At the beginning of every platform, it's very easy to hit people because those platforms need to find as many users as possible to make money themselves.

Host: 00:33:11

And until they do that, they push your stuff as much as you can give it.

Host: 00:33:15

But at a certain point they decide to switch it.

Host: 00:33:19

And now they're all about making money.

Host: 00:33:21

So you can't rely on that.

Russell Nolte: 00:33:23

Well, so this is where I, I think that what happens, how I see it is Facebook that sucks now because they force you to pay for people and you never get access to like your thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:33:38

And they have bot characters.

Russell Nolte: 00:33:40

I think this is what Facebook always was.

Russell Nolte: 00:33:42

The difference is VC money subsidized it not sucking as bad as it did at the beginning.

Russell Nolte: 00:33:51

And that is what all of these platforms do.

Russell Nolte: 00:33:53

They, they take investment that allows them to make their crappy platform not crappy because it's like, oh, we have money, we cannot do advertising, we cannot paywall, we cannot gate all of this stuff, we cannot throttle you because, like, we have money.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:14

But eventually money is like, well, now we want to make the money.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:18

I don't want to give you the money.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:19

I want to make the money.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:21

And that is when the, the platforms all show their true colors and they all go, well, this is actually what we are all along.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:32

We just wanted you to think so.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:34

Everyone who say so this is the reason that this is important is because people complaining about social media now and, and longing for the good old days, they never happened.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:45

They never existed.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:46

They were being subsidized.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:48

Like, someone was paying Facebook to not be crappy, but it was always not crappy.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:54

It was always this.

Russell Nolte: 00:34:55

It just felt different because someone was giving you money, them money to be better.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:02

And when you have that, you can say, oh, well, like, now they're tricking me.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:08

They were just tricking me before.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:09

So, like, it doesn't matter what they were before.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:12

This is what actually they want.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:14

This was always their plan.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:16

This crappy.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:18

Like when they went into VCs, and when Facebook went into VCs, they didn't say, give me a bunch of money.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:23

I'm going to bring a bunch of people together.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:25

They said, we're going to bring a bunch of people together.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:27

And then we're going to trick creators into doing, into like, bringing their audience there.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:31

And then we're going to like, make people pay to access them and we're going to increase pricing and we're going to do X, Y.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:37

And like, their pitch was, this is how we're going to monetize eventually.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:41

So, like, this is the reality.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:46

What you are, what you witness in every platform at the beginning is not reality.

Russell Nolte: 00:35:52

Which is why I tend to never be on any platform anymore with, with one exception, which is Substack, which I probably wouldn't have joined if the social media component was there.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:03

But, like, at least they don't do ads.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:05

I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:05

Like, I have a fair weird relationship with Substack, but I do.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:10

Like, they are also subsidized.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:12

So, like, at some point VC money will say, thank you, we need to make our money back now, and things will start getting worse.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:21

I don't know when that is tick.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:22

But like, every platform, every platform that relies on VC money and advertising spend and like, and network effects, everyone goes through the same cycle.

Host: 00:36:37

Yeah.

Host: 00:36:38

How would you recommend people approach each of those?

Host: 00:36:41

Would you say, just stay off of it or just do the ones or two of them that might work the best for them?

Host: 00:36:47

Or how would you build your list if you were starting over, I would.

Russell Nolte: 00:36:51

Say find the platforms that feel intuitive, make intuitive sense to you, because those are the ones where so sub.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:02

The reason I got so into substack was because when I, when, when notes came out, I was like, oh my God, I get it.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:10

Like, this is just: 2012

Russell Nolte: 00:37:11

I can totally game this algorithm.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:13

I can totally.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:14

I know every trick to play on this algorithm and it all worked.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:19

And now I'm like, oh, I have like the arbitrage built in.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:23

Like, I have the substack book.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:24

I have all these things.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:25

So like, people like, find me now.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:28

So like.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:29

But like, I, I tried Blue sky and I was like, oh, Blue sky set up like Twitter.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:34

I never got Twitter.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:35

Like, I never got, I never got that platform.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:38

So like, when I'm like, I'm, I'm tweeting, I'm.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:41

I'm skating or whatever the thing is over there and there and I'm like, I don't understand, like, I have no idea how this works.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:48

So, like, it's probably never going to work for me.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:50

So I like deleted my account.

Russell Nolte: 00:37:52

So, like, I think probably what you should do is try platforms like one or two at a time.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:03

3.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:03

Just like find the ones that you're like, I love this.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:07

I totally understand how this works.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:09

Tick Tock.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:09

I hate it.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:10

I can't get on it.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:11

I can't do it.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:13

But Facebook works for me because Facebook is about gathering collaborators and like then performing an action together like an anthology or a.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:26

Or some sort of drive or something.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:29

So like we're all.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:30

Then I understand how subs, how platforms work that are like more social centric that, that but like small group where it's like your goal is to make friends with the most powerful people on this platform and then work together.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:49

But Tick Tock doesn't work for me because, like, I'm never gonna do that.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:54

I just, I can't.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:56

I just like, my brain does not work that way.

Russell Nolte: 00:38:58

I can't stay on there looking at social at like the Tick Tock feed.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:02

But like, I know a lot of people love it and like, if you love it, if it makes intuitive sense to you, then like, that is when you should double down.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:12

If it doesn't make intuitive sense to you, then, like, you should not.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:17

Because the only good marketing is the marketing that you do.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:22

And you just won't do things that like, you don't like over time.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:27

You just won't.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:27

Especially at the beginning when, like, it's so hard to do anything.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:32

Like when you're not making money, doing anything when like your arbitrage is so bad everywhere, where it feels like you are just dying.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:42

Like it's so hard to do it when you don't intuitively at least enjoy the platform.

Russell Nolte: 00:39:54

And overall, my marketing strategy is go places that you want to be and find people there that want to hang out with you and make something cool.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:07

And if you can be a collector or like a leader or like someone who sits at the hub of like an anthology or I don't know, a movie, something where like you have to bring people together because everyone wants to do a thing, no one wants to lead a thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:29

So like if you can somehow collect and this, you could do this.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:35

Literally any, any human can do this right now.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:38

You, you go and you find 10 other people that are at your exact level, have similar audiences to you and you just say, hey, let's do a virtual conference together.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:54

If it's let, let's do an anthology together.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:57

Let's do whatever the thing is together.

Russell Nolte: 00:40:59

And you put yourself in the middle, you do the anthology.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:03

You then capture the email addresses of the people who are there.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:09

Because you have now collected 10 people's email best emails.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:16

Just like, oh, all the people that are interested, that are in my niche, that are doing a thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:21

Like all of these people that had a hundred people on their email list.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:25

Now I have a hundred people on my email list who are all of those people's best emails.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:30

And as long as you're not a dick about it, like don't be a jerk about it, but like then you now have 200 people on your email list.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:38

Well, you can do that with people with 250 emails and then you can do that with like people with a thousand emails.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:44

You can just keep daisy chaining your way up this way of like making these bigger and bigger projects that like you were at the center of and eventually suddenly you're the person with like 10,000 and 20,000 emails.

Russell Nolte: 00:41:59

And then you have like, then you're starting to meet like the biggest players and that is when like it just exponentially like increases for you.

Russell Nolte: 00:42:10

But literally you can do not do this on platform.

Russell Nolte: 00:42:15

You have to do it in a place that you control the train of data, whether that's a circle community or like mighty network or your email list or like in person.

Russell Nolte: 00:42:29

But like literally any human being that's sitting here, no matter your level, can do this right now and in two months execute something.

Host: 00:42:45

Yeah, I think it's about the power of having like minded people in a group and A lot of creators like to go solo and do everything themselves, which is.

Host: 00:42:56

Leads to, you know, like, oh, I can't.

Host: 00:42:58

I don't know how to do anything.

Host: 00:42:59

But the more you work with other people who are also interested in the same things, the better it'll be because you're not doing it by yourself.

Host: 00:43:07

You're kind of working together to make yourselves grow in the same manner.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:10

Right?

Russell Nolte: 00:43:11

Right.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:11

And, like, then what happens is, let's say you do an anthology.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:16

Suddenly you've got 40 people that were in an anthology with you.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:20

Some of them will start their own anthologies, and you'll start getting, like, you'll start getting accept, asked, not even accepted, like, asked into their anthologies because you're like, you.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:33

It's like your coaching tree that you've built up and nobody ever does it.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:39

I talk about this constantly.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:41

And, like, I think maybe like five or six people have ever, in 20 and 10 years of me talking about this, taking me up on it, I've actually gone through and done this strategy.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:52

But it is the best strategy if you want to actually grow a successful creative business.

Russell Nolte: 00:43:58

Because everyone is now working to a singular goal and you.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:04

The only thing you reap above everyone else is, like, the access to the emails or, like, the people.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:12

And because they're all sharing, you get all of the people who are most interested in the topic.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:19

Now, you could go and, like, drop a bunch of money on ads or, like, do a bunch of other.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:24

Do a sales page.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:25

And, like, sure, there's other ways to do this, but, like, if you want to do it organically, like, man, it is like, still the wild west out there.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:35

And even then, if there are not enough people doing this at any level, but, like, at the smaller you are, the bigger your opportunity is to do this, because there's more people who are at this.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:49

The smaller you are, the more people are at that level to collaborate with.

Russell Nolte: 00:44:54

And if you can, like, be the next the node of the network to help get people from 10 subscribers to 100 subscribers, to a thousand subscribers, like, to working on Marvel and DC and all of those things.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:06

And the more people that are in your network, the more you have these chaotic strategic things happening and, like, these, like, nodes that are firing all together.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:15

And, like, good things are happening.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:17

And, like, you are like, have some instead of having no agency, you're saying, well, I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:25

This is the thing that I'm best at creating right now, so I'm just gonna do that.

Host: 00:45:31

What was the first anthology that you kind of worked on that you discovered this or was it an anthology?

Host: 00:45:37

Was it a giveaway?

Host: 00:45:38

Was it raffle?

Host: 00:45:39

What did you do?

Host: 00:45:40

It was make that first step.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:42

So I mean, I did movies and stuff and that's very collaborative back in the day.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:46

But like the monsters.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:47

What happened was I had two projects, so I was doing conventions in comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:53

You run the convention circuit.

Russell Nolte: 00:45:55

There's like a bunch of conventions around the country and you kind of like go to them and that's how you sell your stuff.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:00

So I was doing that pretty successfully.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:01

And I had these two books, Ichabod Jones, Monster Hunter and Katrina Hates the Dead.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:06

And it was: 2016

Russell Nolte: 00:46:08

I was like, I released my next project, which was a mystery novel, tall and blog posts.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:13

And it was tanking comparatively.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:15

Like it was making like it made like a third of the Trina books.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:19

And before then I'd be on an up on an upward trajectory.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:22

So I was like, what's happening here?

Russell Nolte: 00:46:23

And I.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:23

And I started asking like, like, no shade, like, what's going on?

Russell Nolte: 00:46:28

And they're like, we just, we want you to make monster comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:30

We want you to make monster things.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:32

Like, make monster comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:33

And like, we will be there.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:34

And I was like, oh, well, I guess I can do that.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:39

But like, I don't have a lot of money.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:41

I had no money yet.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:42

I had like money to produce.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:44

I didn't know I had like no money.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:46

I had the money enough to get a cover because I was spending all of my money spending all of my money, like going back into shows.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:55

And we were like losing our shirts at that time.

Russell Nolte: 00:46:57

Like, I thought we were gonna go bankrupt by the time that we could turn it around.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:01

I finally did turn it around with like at the end of that year, obviously.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:05

But like, it was tough.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:07

It was tough.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:09

And I was like, all right, maybe I could do an anthology.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:15

I've been.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:15

I'd been rejected roundly from every anthology I'd ever applied to and But I was like, you know, I know how to make a comic.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:23

I don't make a good comic.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:24

Like, what comics sell.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:25

I have a bunch of friends and so I just asked them, like, hey, do you want to like, do.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:30

I think it was like one to 15 pages and like, it doesn't matter.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:34

Like, just like, do it, don't do it.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:36

e been doing comics now since: 2010

Russell Nolte: 00:47:44

And I knew some pretty well known creators, at least well known on the indie scene because, like, I did Conventions.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:51

And like, my stuff was already pretty good.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:54

But so, like, I had a friend.

Russell Nolte: 00:47:57

I had originally the original incarnation of Wannabe Press.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:02

We were publishing webbed comics, and I had a small group of creators who I was publishing their webcomic every day that ended up not lasting that long.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:13

But I met a person named Eric Lervold who had a comic called Red Calaveras at the time.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:20

And I was like, hey, will you do a seven page story for five, six page story?

Russell Nolte: 00:48:25

I forget.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:25

Exactly.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:26

And we did that story.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:28

And then I just managed all of these things coming in, and we didn't have a great take rate.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:35

I think I asked like 300 people and like 50 to 30 or 40 did it.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:45

But, like, when you ask 300 people, a lot of people, not many people have to say yes for it to go well.

Russell Nolte: 00:48:51

So I think we originally had like 500 pages committed, and we ended up with like 250 pages that actually came into the book.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:00

And I was like, okay, I got Aaron Alexevich, who does.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:06

Who did.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:06

Was a character designer on Invader Zim, because Invader Zim was like our biggest comp.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:11

You saw the B over there.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:14

That's very Invader Zimmy.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:16

So I asked him if he would do it, and he did.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:19

And then I launched the book on the.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:25

And I was like, cool.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:26

This is easy.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:27

Like, I.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:28

I met.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:29

I had a bunch of friends.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:30

I like, made a cool thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:31

I like comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:32

You like comics.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:33

You could also do prose in that first one.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:35

So, like, it just like, yeah, it was fun.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:38

And then I.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:41

I started it.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:42

We did.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:42

Can I curse on this podcast?

Host: 00:49:44

Sure.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:45

All right.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:45

I did this.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:46

I did this promo I started on Valentine's Day, was called Love Monsters are Better.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:52

I started at day one, and in that first day, it raised more than I raised the entire previous year.

Russell Nolte: 00:49:59

And I was like, oh, shit.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:02

And people started sharing it, and it kept going and it kept going.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:05

By the end of that campaign, it raised more than I had raised every project before it.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:12

And I was like, wow, that was fun.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:15

And I made money.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:16

Like, that was.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:18

I wasn't even doing it because of, like.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:20

And then I had like 600 people.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:22

And then what I did is I have a book called Pixie Dust, which is, like, done in a very, like, cartoony style.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:31

And I launched it later that year and I was like, okay, so my bet is that if I do this anthology, I can then raise my book.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:42

I can then sell my own book that's of a similar style, and, like, it will do well.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:47

Well, like, that one did even better than the.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:50

Than the.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:51

Than the.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:51

Than the anthology book.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:52

And I was like, oh.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:55

So, like, this is.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:56

This is like a system.

Russell Nolte: 00:50:58

You can, like, do an anthology, gather people, and then launch your own project right after it.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:03

Not right after a million, but, like, once that one delivers and people like it.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:07

And then those people were all super.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:09

Like, they were all super.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:11

I didn't have a 624 person audience before.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:14

Buying audience before, but all of these smaller creators all, like, working together, all like, their best people who were most likely to like my Pixie Dust book bought this book.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:28

And then, like, I put my book, it was an epic fantasy story at the front of the Cthulhu of the Monster.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:34

So it was the first thing that people read.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:36

So, like, people had now seen the style.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:38

They bought it because of the cartoony style cover.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:41

And then they read my book, my story first before they dropped off.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:44

Liked that.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:45

And then, like, the next book happened, and I was like, oh.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:49

So then I asked people, what.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:52

What should I make next?

Russell Nolte: 00:51:53

Like, what's your.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:54

And everyone was like, lovecraft, man.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:55

Make a Lovecraft book.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:56

I love Lovecraft.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:57

Because I was like, lovecraft.

Russell Nolte: 00:51:59

Like, my psychological mind screw is very Lovecraftian.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:02

So I started, like, researching it and getting things.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:05

And like, I called it Cthulhu is Hard to Spell.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:09

I put Cthulhu, the first name was based on.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:11

My friend has a book called Seas for Cthulhu, a kid's book.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:14

And I was like, that's very cute.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:15

I was like, cthulhu is Hard to Spell.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:17

And I was like, oh, well, that's a title.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:20

And then that having.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:22

Having the first one go, because this is the thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:27

A large percentage of people will not follow you the first time.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:32

They want to know if you're going to beef it.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:35

They're not willing to beef it with you.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:38

So, like, they'll wait.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:40

So the second time, suddenly all the people who, like, were like, I don't know, man.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:46

I don't know, man.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:46

I don't know, man.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:47

See that?

Russell Nolte: 00:52:48

I raised, like, $50,000 for these two projects one year, and we're like, no, let's work together.

Russell Nolte: 00:52:55

And so now I was getting, like, 75 of, like, the top comic people and, like, in top indies and, like, I always get.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:03

And everyone likes Cthulhu.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:06

And so, like, I was getting a way, like, bigger audience.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:12

Like, like, suddenly I had, like, a bigger.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:14

A way bigger audience to pull from.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:15

Because now it wasn't just, like, tiny creators or small creators or, like, small indie creators, but, like, that series had like, Paul Jenkins on it and Trina Robbins and like Lee Cosi and all of these people who, like, had names.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:32

Actually, I don't.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:33

I think he was on the Cthulhu book.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:34

I don't even remember who was in that first book.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:36

But it was, it was big enough to like, that we had a thousand backers and we made like 30 grand.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:44

And like, that's.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:45

No, we made like 39 grand, almost 40 grand.

Russell Nolte: 00:53:48

And I was like, wow, what just happened?

Russell Nolte: 00:53:52

Like, I, I now had a career because now I had like two, three successful books and it all came from the same.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:02

And then I went back and I.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:03

Now I had like thousands of buyers that were buying from me every year.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:07

And like, they were seeing the, the, the, like, the quality of the work that I was putting out.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:13

And so they kept rebuying and rebuying and rebuying and rebuying and like, it just like.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:18

But it started with that idea of like, I am willing to endure pain.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:26

I am willing to, like, talk truth to people.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:31

I am willing to set deadlines and do all of, like, the grunt work.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:36

And over time, first of all, if you're just willing to do that, like, you will, like, that is.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:41

That is what it takes to run a conference.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:43

What takes to run a virtual conference.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:45

That's what takes to run a podcast.

Russell Nolte: 00:54:47

Like, are you willing to run the podcast?

Russell Nolte: 00:54:51

Because if you're willing to run the podcast, like, people will be on your podcast because they like to talk and have things to promote.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:00

So, like, you end up.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:01

And then you use that to get bigger and bigger and bigger quality of.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:05

I.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:06

I don't like the word quality, but like, the bigger and bigger audience.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:11

Audience guess.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:12

And then it starts matriculating on each other and that's how you're building the arbitrage.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:17

Because I had a 200 person pot, 200 episode podcast.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:20

And that's what we did.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:21

We were like, oh, by the end I was like, able to email anyone and they were like, oh, yeah, I like your podcast.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:28

That has a nice point of view.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:29

And I was like, thank you.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:31

I know, be on it.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:32

And like, it worked because all they had to do is show up and they knew it was going to be good and they weren't going to waste their time.

Host: 00:55:40

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we're discussing here is the network effect and being willing to experiment with things because you didn't know that this anthology was going to help you raise $40,000 your second time.

Host: 00:55:56

Like, it's just something that you have to try.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:59

Yeah.

Russell Nolte: 00:55:59

I think that it's like this goes back to what we talked about before.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:03

It's like there are things that you can do which will increase your audience size.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:10

Like, if you have no audience and no one's giving you paying attention to you, like, maybe do an anthology, Maybe start a podcast.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:19

My podcast, my goal was very simple.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:22

I wanted to interview the best creators in the world, figure out all of their secrets, and then do them.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:28

Like, it was a very, very, very simple concept, and it worked beautifully over the first.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:34

Like, my career was made by strategies I found in that podcast still that I use today, like, 10 years, almost 10 years later.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:43

But, yeah, like, I think you have to say.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:47

Well, I.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:47

I think you have to be willing to say, I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:51

Like, I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:56:53

Did I think I would enjoy, like, negotiating contracts?

Russell Nolte: 00:57:01

No, I didn't think there would be a skill that I particularly enjoyed, but I like it.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:06

I don't like creating contracts, but I like negotiating contracts.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:10

I don't necessarily find them fun, but I find them stimulating.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:13

Like, you might do something and say.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:16

Not only say, but say, oh, my God, I love this.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:21

Or, like, I used to do book marketing for people and I hated it.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:25

But I'm so good at it.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:27

I'm so good at it.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:28

I'm so good at doing the thing that I did that, like, people have paid me for it for, like, a decade almost.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:34

And just, like, there are things that you so, like, there are things that you do that, like, you'll love, that you don't have any idea you love.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:43

And there are things that you try, that you love.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:45

And you'd be like, oh, I hated that.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:49

What's going to happen now?

Russell Nolte: 00:57:51

I'm going to hate everything I try.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:53

And then you just, like, have to keep at it, trying it.

Russell Nolte: 00:57:58

There's a great quote by Jim Croce, who said he's.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:01

I'm gonna.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:01

I'm gonna bastardize it.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:05

But it was basically like, record executive records were better when A and R people didn't run the labels because you would go in and you would talk to the owner.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:19

And, like, I mean, I say, like, Jim Croce did not understand the privilege that he had as a white male, like, saying this, like, thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:29

But, like, the point that I really took out of it was like.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:33

Like, the records were better when you would walk into the owner's thing and they would listen to a record and be like, I don't know, like, let's throw it out there and see what happens.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:45

And, like, I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:46

I'm not, like, a record guy.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:47

I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:48

Like, these were people who, like, made, like, who, like, owned slaughterhouses, and they suddenly, like, owned a record label.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:55

I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:55

Like, what do I know about music?

Russell Nolte: 00:58:57

But then there's a.

Russell Nolte: 00:58:59

Then people who knew music, A R guys, young guys, started to come in and be like, oh, this is what's hip.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:07

This is what people want.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:09

And, like, suddenly they're like, massage.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:10

They're, like, making a box of, like, what could be.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:16

And while it takes a wild amount of privilege to say that, like, making music was better in the 60s and 70s, I do like that idea of, like, yeah, like, what do I know?

Russell Nolte: 00:59:31

And so when I.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:32

I have a podcast called the Six Figure Author Experiment, and I.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:37

My.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:37

My co host is like, what is fun?

Russell Nolte: 00:59:40

Like, some of us can't always do the fun thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:42

We have to do the thing.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:43

Like, some of us have to work at McDonald's and burn in the.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:46

And the night shift and, like, for no pay and, like, burn our hands and be miserable the whole time.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:53

Unless you love McDonald's, and then, congratulations, like, you had the job of your life.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:58

Do it.

Russell Nolte: 00:59:59

You're loving it.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:01

But you.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:07

You have to try the things that are fun.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:11

But she doesn't say, do the things that are fun.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:15

She says, what sounds fun to you, which is.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:20

Which sounds the same, but it is not.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:23

Because if you look for things that sound fun, they might not be fun.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:29

They might be horrible.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:32

Like, but if you look for things that sound fun or that you.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:36

That might interest you or something that's like, well, I don't.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:40

I want to sign this contract, but I probably need to know what it says first, right?

Russell Nolte: 01:00:46

Like, this is a wild thing to say to creators.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:49

But, like, if you.

Russell Nolte: 01:00:51

If you have a contract in front of you, you should know what you're signing and what you're signing away before you sign it.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:01

And because that was my philosophy, when contracts would come, I would read them.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:07

I would ask my manager at the time, I would ask my agent, like, what does this mean?

Russell Nolte: 01:01:12

Is this a good deal?

Russell Nolte: 01:01:13

And they're like, no, because look at this clause.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:16

I started to be like, oh, yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:18

Like, there's all these, like, things that you can look.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:21

That you can now look for.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:22

Be like, oh, this is crap.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:25

This is like that.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:26

Like, and you could just see them at a glance.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:28

It's like the old MLE crew and the brown M&M's.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:33

You know, they get, like, talked about.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:35

Like, MLE crew would not do a concert.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:37

If, like the Brown M and M's and it's like.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:39

But the reason they did it is because if there were brown M and M's in the bowl, it meant they didn't read the contract close enough.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:48

It didn't.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:49

Like they weren't going to follow all of the fire hazards, but then they can see it in one second.

Russell Nolte: 01:01:55

So there's things you can do when you see a contract to be like, this company is just going to dick me around.

Russell Nolte: 01:02:01

No, thank you, I'm out.

Russell Nolte: 01:02:04

But if you want the publishing deal, you have to know how to read the publishing contract or you're going to sign a contract that is going to sign away too much away.

Russell Nolte: 01:02:14

And so sometimes in order to get the fun thing, you have to do things to get there.

Russell Nolte: 01:02:20

And so it's not only do what's fun, but it should maybe be pursue what sounds fun until you reach an impediment that is no longer fun and you do not want to get over that block.

Host: 01:02:35

Interesting perspective.

Host: 01:02:36

I've never heard that take before.

Host: 01:02:38

But obviously we won't know what's fun until we do it.

Host: 01:02:41

So obviously we can try a bunch of different things and get to that fun place and discover organically, even something.

Host: 01:02:51

If we're just talking about social media, just trying something.

Host: 01:02:53

Oh, I didn't like it.

Host: 01:02:55

You know, it sounds like it's fun to make a TikTok, but if you don't like speaking to the camera, obviously that's not gonna work.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:01

Or.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:01

But then you can be like, well, what would be fun about TikTok?

Russell Nolte: 01:03:05

Well, like, maybe I make bird calls.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:07

I like bird calls.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:08

Like, I want to make marionettes, like, whatever that thing is.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:11

And then you can just pursue that on TikTok and maybe it will work, maybe it won't work.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:17

I don't know what is a good or a bad idea.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:21

My friend Jamie, she became a, like, cosplayer on TikTok, which I even know was a thing, but, like, it was.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:31

And it combined her love of costume design and her love of acting and her love of the things that she cosplays in.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:41

And it was like such a beautiful, like, meld of those things.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:46

But, like, she didn't go in there doing TikTok dances.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:50

Or maybe she did, but eventually she was like, well, what would be fun to me, oh, I see this thing over on TikTok.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:58

I could do that.

Russell Nolte: 01:03:59

And then they pursued it and it worked, and it worked and it worked.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:02

And suddenly, like, now they have a career.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:05

I think I Don't know.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:06

It's at least one of the things that they do consistently.

Host: 01:04:10

Yeah, just be willing to throw yourself out there and try things because they sound fun until you realize it may or may not work.

Host: 01:04:19

And if it doesn't work, then unless you're super passionate about that thing, you need to just let go of it.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:26

Well, and I think you have to also, because, like, I interviewed Marv Wolfman, he's a friend of mine, and Marv said in our interview, you have to be willing to jump off a burning bridge.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:38

Which is like, not exactly what he said, but the idea is like, he's.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:42

He.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:42

He created the Teen Titans and then comics were dried up and he started doing movies, and then he started doing animation, and then he started doing video games.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:51

And he.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:51

At every stage he was able to say, oh, I'm not okay.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:57

I don't want to do this anymore.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:58

Or the industry is not.

Russell Nolte: 01:04:59

But, like, what he wanted to do was right.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:01

So he just like, okay, what else can I write?

Russell Nolte: 01:05:04

Like, I don't know, like, Batman, Brave and the Bold is pretty much a Batman comics.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:09

Like, maybe I can do that thing.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:11

And like, so, like.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:12

But, like, things will dry up for you and because of you, and you will lose interest and then you'll gain interest back and you'll find some other interest.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:25

And like, that's, I think, the creative work.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:28

Like, if you told me 10 years ago I would draw my own comic and also, like, run a conference, I'd be like, that's ridiculous.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:38

Career.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:38

Like, who has that career?

Russell Nolte: 01:05:40

But, like, I don't know, like, I.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:43

People kept saying a thing that sounded fun to the point that it, like, drilled into my brain.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:53

And I mean, is it a particularly good comic?

Russell Nolte: 01:05:57

It's not well drawn.

Russell Nolte: 01:05:59

But, like, people seem to like it and like, I don't know, like, it's nice to have it out in the world.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:04

I think so many people, in lieu of doing a thing, they sit on that thing for years and Suddenly, like, to 10 years later, I have 7,000 projects, whatever it is, and like, they have two.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:21

Because, like, it takes you being like, oh, I'm going to write novels, I'm going to write this, I'm going to do this.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:27

I'm going to do this.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:28

I'm going to do this.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:28

I'm going to do this.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:29

I'm going to do this.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:30

I'm going to, like, become a painter.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:32

I'm going to, like, own a conference.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:34

I'm going to, like, whatever I have to do to keep pushing forward.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:38

I'm going to do.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:41

And I think, like, we should try to make the best thing that we can with, at every.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:53

At any moment.

Russell Nolte: 01:06:54

So, like, I get so many compliments on this art.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:00

This art that, like, I didn't think was very good when I made it until people started buying it and I was like, weird.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:11

Like, this is just a joke.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:13

It's a joke.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:14

Guys like, like.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:15

And then, like, they just kept buying it to the point that I was like, well, maybe I should draw a book.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:20

I don't know.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:21

Like, I'd love to know how to draw a comic.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:23

And so, like, but, like, I did not go to art school.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:28

But, like, I am a professional artist.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:30

I have it on my resume because, like, I did sell art.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:33

I've sold art in my life.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:34

I've been commissioned to make art.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:36

Like, I've done these weird things in my career because, like, the, I started painting the art because I needed more things to sell at my table.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:51

So it's like, necessity.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:52

And I liked it and so I kept doing it.

Russell Nolte: 01:07:55

And I would spend days just like painting at the table, like, just to fill up my table space.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:02

And that became like a huge seller at my booth.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:05

And those, these things, some part of that allowed me to do booze for longer, for long enough that I.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:14

For me to have enough comics and enough books that I could fill my table with other things.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:19

But like, so, like, sometimes you, you do these.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:23

Like, I did not think I would have a 200 episode podcast.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:26

Podcast.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:26

I definitely did not think I would have three or four podcasts that I've done in my career that all last like, more than 25 episodes.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:35

Like, I'm not a podcaster.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:37

Like, I, I've said like, probably a hundred times in this.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:41

I'm not very good at, like, not taking out Oz and ums.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:44

I didn't do Toastmasters, but, like, I have somehow done hundreds of these things.

Russell Nolte: 01:08:52

And it started by me saying, well, I don't know how to build a creative career, but Ben Templesmith does.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:04

And so how do I interview Ben Templesmith?

Russell Nolte: 01:09:07

Literally was what happened?

Russell Nolte: 01:09:08

I was sitting in front of Ben Templesmith table, who drew 30 days of night.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:13

He's one of the premier horror artists in the world.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:16

And I was, I was like, I can't sit with you for like an hour and just like, ask you all of the questions.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:23

Then someone come up and ask him to be on a podcast.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:25

And he's like, yes.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:26

I was like, oh, well, like, is like, like the thing I wanted to do was have an interview with Ben Templesmith Functionally, the thing that the podcast got me there, like, it's the easiest path to get to.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:44

Like the interview with Ben Templesmith.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:45

It took two years to do that.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:47

But, like, it was like, it was.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:50

This was: 2016

Russell Nolte: 01:09:53

So it was quite a while ago.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:54

But, like, the function, I.

Russell Nolte: 01:09:57

I wanted the function of like interviewing all of these people so that I could have the knowledge, so that I could actually have basically like 200 one on one mentoring sessions.

Russell Nolte: 01:10:08

And like, then I could like, cobble together all of the things that worked.

Russell Nolte: 01:10:17

So like, sometimes, like, you'll see an impediment, but, like, really you just have to be like, oh, well, this is like, if you turn the axis a little, you go, okay.

Russell Nolte: 01:10:29

Like, I see the.

Russell Nolte: 01:10:30

I see the path forward now, but it does come from, I think, a lot of flexible.

Russell Nolte: 01:10:37

Like, I think your brain has to be pretty elastic and you have to be pretty bendable a lot, especially at the beginning of your career.

Host: 01:10:50

Yeah, I think one of my favorite things to do is just experiment and see what works, because otherwise you're just shooting the dark.

Host: 01:10:58

You can follow other people, but some of those things will work, some of those won't.

Host: 01:11:02

And it's only until you find the thing that works for you, because everyone is different.

Host: 01:11:07

So I could try to follow your anthology, but if I don't write good horror, it's not going to work for me.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:11

Right, Right.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:13

Yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:13

I think that there's a seed, though.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:15

It's like, be the fulcrum by which a group grows.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:23

And then once you grow, once someone grows, they'll pull you up when you grow, when you, when you meet, when you grow, you pull them up and then all of you guys are growing in this, like, bigger and bigger and bigger.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:37

Or like, like it helps you bend reality more.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:42

And so it doesn't matter what it is, but like having some sort of focused mission where a group of people all together are doing a thing where you are the focal point.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:56

So you are getting an.

Russell Nolte: 01:11:58

You're also doing outmoded work.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:00

So it's like, it's not like doing an anthology was like a hundred times more at work than doing being in an anthology.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:07

So it's not like you're doing outmoded work.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:09

And to get.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:10

You're.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:10

You're getting outmoded return and then not doing outmoded work.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:14

Like, you're doing the outmoded work to be the.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:17

Like to push on the membrane the hardest to pop everyone through.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:22

But if you can figure out a way to do that in whatever way you can.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:28

Like, you are go.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:29

It's so much easier to put push together with 10 people than it is to push by yourself.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:36

And usually the reason why you can't get to the next level is one, because you're not even trying, but two, because you just don't have enough momentum.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:50

And so what these other people do is they help bring you momentum.

Russell Nolte: 01:12:54

They keep bringing other people to look in your direction, to look at what you're doing.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:01

Those people also got like, read by thousands of people, like tens of thousands of people at this point in those anthologies probably.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:09

So, like, they're, they're getting like a return throughout the whole thing, and they're motivated to have you get to the next level because you're going to pull them up and you're going to like, give them this access and you're going to be able to report, report back how to do it to them and so that they can do it for you.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:29

And it doesn't matter as much.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:32

That's why I was like, virtual conference, community event.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:35

Like, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:38

But like, every time you do it, you become the person who did it.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:43

And like, then the next one becomes easier.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:46

And at this point, like, I have a huge network of people who know that I've done a lot of these things successfully and not always, like, sometimes you fail.

Russell Nolte: 01:13:57

But like, that is like, it's.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:00

It's not about the anthology.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:02

Like, as you said, it's not about the, like the, the podcast.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:06

It's not about the.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:08

It's not about the community event.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:10

It's about that.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:11

Like, Germ of a Nexus.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:13

Just the same thing as like a.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:16

That the reason why you want to do a signature series is because when you are put on a bookshelf and the, the.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:26

For the more of a bookshelf is taken up by your work, the more likely someone's eye is to find it.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:34

And it's like, well, this is the kernel of the idea, right?

Russell Nolte: 01:14:39

It's like, this is the.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:40

You want to have more space.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:43

You want people to read one book and, and now they read 10 books and you make 10 times the money.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:49

Like, that is the.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:51

Like, I don't care if you write a signature series or you have an art piece or like, you do a.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:56

Whatever you, you make a.

Russell Nolte: 01:14:58

You make like a big old sculpture that like sits in the middle of something.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:02

I don't, I don't know what.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:03

But the kernel is when someone looks at this thing, I guarantee you they're not Looking at this book or like, this book, because, like, it's just that, like, moves the eye.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:17

Like, the eye will go to the thing that has the most energy behind it.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:22

So.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:23

Yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:23

I mean, and I think we spend so much time looking at what people that do our exact thing have done that we miss the kernel.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:36

We in movies and tv, they have a thing that's like, every time someone opens a window and gets through, they close that window and seal it shut.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:46

So it's like no one else is getting through that way.

Russell Nolte: 01:15:49

There's a billion open windows, but you can't get through this one because someone else already did.

Host: 01:15:57

Yeah.

Host: 01:15:58

It's about taking that and making it your own thing.

Host: 01:16:02

Because everybody's situation is obviously different.

Host: 01:16:05

The people you know are different.

Host: 01:16:06

The stuff you're doing is different.

Host: 01:16:08

It's just learning the basic principle, the main principle of the lesson you should be learning and applying it in a way that makes sense for you.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:18

Yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:18

And on top of that, it's that no one's doing it.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:23

No one does it.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:24

Like, I swear to you, like, go look at your.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:26

Go look at your friend list.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:28

How many people can you actually say legitimately right now are doing anything that is even remotely like anything we've talked about today?

Russell Nolte: 01:16:37

It's going to be.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:38

It's probably very small.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:39

I have a very large friend list and still less than 10% of them, probably less than 1% of them are doing any of this stuff.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:47

It's like, even at the highest levels, people are not doing it.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:52

They're not.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:53

They're not thinking in this way.

Russell Nolte: 01:16:56

And if you just think in this way, like, people would rather people.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:00

Everyone has the idea to do it, but if you just say I'm doing it, suddenly the magnet starts pulling towards you.

Host: 01:17:10

Yeah.

Host: 01:17:11

Be willing to put yourself out there and be the focal point and bring people together, I think, is obviously one of the biggest lessons that you've learned.

Host: 01:17:21

So just as long as you're willing to do that, you have the potential to have that thing be successful just because, you know, working at this together.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:33

Yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:34

And, like, honestly, like, just give it all away.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:38

Whatever.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:39

Like, if someone gives you any resistance, just, like, give all the things away because, like, they're not going to buy it anyway.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:47

Like, the people that are going to buy it and care aren't going to care that someone else reads it, it or someone else consumes it as well.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:54

Like, I.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:56

I have so many people that like kids.

Russell Nolte: 01:17:59

I'm like.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:00

Like teenagers who.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:01

I've given our, like, our books away too.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:03

And they're just like, what?

Russell Nolte: 01:18:04

I'm like, yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:04

Like, I don't.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:06

Like, I just want you to read it, man.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:08

I just want you to have it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:09

Like, go for it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:10

Like, if I have knowledge, I will give it to anyone that asks because no one is you going to use it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:19

No one will do it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:21

So, like, what does it matter if I give it away?

Russell Nolte: 01:18:23

First of all, I'm already past it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:25

And second of all, like, you're not going to use it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:29

So, like, I might as well give it away because then Maybe, maybe the 1 of 10,000 people will do it.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:35

So, like, like, you are not.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:38

Like, you are amplifying yourself by being generous and by being strategically helpful and by finding people that like, like, are on your same wavelength.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:57

It's not even about doing the same stuff as you either.

Russell Nolte: 01:18:59

It's about, like, resonating on the same wavelength of weird.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:03

It just so happens that, like, hey, if you've written 40 novels or, like, been doing this for a long time, like, we probably resonate on some level at the same frequency.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:16

We probably have some basis to hang out.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:19

And maybe when we hang out, I'll.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:22

We'll figure out something that we can do together that sounds fun.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:25

And, like, then we can use our complementary and other talents to, like, not.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:31

But, like, I am starting to think pretty exclusively in strategic partnerships.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:36

Just, like, how can I work with you on something?

Russell Nolte: 01:19:39

Like, how can I have you.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:41

How can we be more together as opposed to, like, how can I alone wolf it?

Russell Nolte: 01:19:47

Because, like, lone wolves are sick.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:51

That's why they're lone.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:53

Usually wolves are together.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:57

They're in a pack.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:58

That's how.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:59

Despite what.

Russell Nolte: 01:19:59

What every single movie and TV show and book tells you, wolves operate in packs when they are healthy, they do not when they are not healthy, and when they are old or when they are.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:13

When they cannot handle pack dynamics.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:15

And usually pretty soon after a wolf goes off on his own, he dies.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:24

Because we exist in packs.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:27

There's a reason that pack, that wolves hunt together.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:30

There's a reason why we work better together.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:35

There's a reason why the lone wolf is a myth.

Host: 01:20:42

Yeah.

Host: 01:20:43

The alpha wolf myth is so prevalent, and there's no way to get back from it now.

Host: 01:20:48

So it's an interesting topic in itself, I think.

Russell Nolte: 01:20:52

Yeah, absolutely.

Host: 01:20:54

Cool.

Host: 01:20:54

I have a few more questions left.

Host: 01:20:56

I don't want to keep you too long.

Host: 01:20:59

Do you know anyone personally who also runs a standout creative business?

Host: 01:21:03

I'm sure you do, because you're.

Host: 01:21:04

You're out there prolifically, so maybe Name your favorite person that you worked with recently and how they kind of stand out from the crowd.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:13

Oh, my God, this is so hard.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:16

All right, so I'm gonna say Reese, I'm gonna take your recent thing, which.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:20

Which takes out my business partner, Monica Lionel, who's amazing, and my podcast co host.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:30

My podcast co host, Lee Savino, who is also amazing.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:35

I'm trying to find.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:36

Think of the most recent partnership that I've done that, you know, I'm just going to go with Lee.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:44

Like, Lee Savino, we have a podcast called the Six Figure Author Experiment.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:48

She is always game for anything.

Russell Nolte: 01:21:52

Like, she writes Alpha shifter romance, kind of like Mafia paranormal books.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:00

She's been, like, obscenely successful.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:02

She was our closing speaker at our conference this year.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:07

And I.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:11

I went to our conference as a.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:16

I wanted to do this podcast.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:18

I had this germ of an idea.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:21

I've been.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:21

Had it for a couple of years, and I was looking for a co host.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:26

I kind of like.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:27

I like going to conferences.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:29

Kind of like, plan serendipity.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:31

Have a.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:31

Have a plan, but, like, let it flow.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:34

It was like the last day, and Lee was just sit.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:37

I was sitting, talking to somebody, and then I was just.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:40

And then they left and I was like, sitting and like, Lee came out and we got to talking, and I was like, I have this really weird idea.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:46

And she's like, I love it.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:47

Let's do it.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:49

And like, a month later, we were.

Russell Nolte: 01:22:50

We had like 10 episodes of this podcast that we had recorded, and it's like molded and changed, and it's just like, I love that.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:02

I love when somebody just knows what a them project is.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:09

And Lee is like, so.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:11

So we've worked on a bunch of projects together now or a few projects together, and all of the people that I really resonate with have that same.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:19

I did a book with S.K.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:23

prince earlier this year.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:24

She was the same way.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:27

Our conference directors, Mel and Todger, are, like, always the same way.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:31

They have this habit of, like, catching opportunity and, like, redirecting it in a productive way that, like, makes them go, yes, I want this part.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:45

And it might not be the whole thing, but they are very good at saying, like, it's.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:52

So it's.

Russell Nolte: 01:23:56

It's pretty easy to do that, to say yes to things when no one wants you.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:01

So, like, eventually you'll be in your career and people will be like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:06

And then you'll get, like, one yes.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:08

And it'll be a thing you may not even want to do, but you'll be like, yes, just like, recognize me.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:16

And then you start getting a bunch of yeses over time and you're like, I don't know, I'm getting exhausted.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:22

I'm just gonna stop doing everything that's not a hell yes.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:26

And we all, we've all heard that, right?

Russell Nolte: 01:24:29

That's pretty bad advice for someone who get.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:31

That's getting nothing but no's.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:33

You kind of like, gotta take some, some awkward yeses until you don't have.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:40

Until you're getting all yeses.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:42

But then over time, everything becomes a hell yes.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:47

Like, everyone you know is doing interesting things and collaborating interesting ways and wants to work with you and everyone.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:53

Like, all of your best friends are like, your favorite creators too.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:56

So, like, you're like, oh my God.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:57

Like, yes.

Russell Nolte: 01:24:58

And so, like, the question is, like, how do you get to the next level and be like.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:04

Like, I don't even know how to say.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:05

Like, I'm in this place now where I'm like, everything.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:08

I want to do everything.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:10

I want to do everything that people.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:11

Because, like, they all seem so neat and interesting.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:14

And I love, like, people that can, like, parse that thing and, like, have found a way through that without burning out.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:26

And I think, like, Lee, that's what we talk about all the time on our podcast.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:30

Like, we are very much just like chaotic neutral humans or hopefully chaotic good humans that, like, just kind of get together and good things happen.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:41

Like, and I, I really appreciate.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:45

I.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:46

I think a big part of creativity is going back to, to being a child, having that childlike wonder.

Russell Nolte: 01:25:54

Now, it's not maintaining your childlike wonder forever.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:02

That is a little part of it.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:04

But I do think it's important to get the mastery.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:08

Like, you have to get the pieces of being an adult and being a master, and then you have to shed them all to be a child, to, like, to have that childlike wonder again.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:20

Because otherwise, you know, look, I love children.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:25

My niece made the most beautiful watercolor to me.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:29

I don't think that other people are going to think it's as beautiful because, like, technically it's a stick figure.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:40

But, like, I personally love it.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:43

So you have to, I, on some level maintain a piece of that, that childlike wonder, but somehow get to the top of the mountaintop to become like, like, it's hard to know business without losing some of your childlike wonder.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:56

Just is like, business is boring.

Russell Nolte: 01:26:59

Like, it's like it's looking at P&LS and like, looking at data spreadsheets and like, being on meetings where you're talking about how the revenue projections are going.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:08

And, like, it's not childlike in any way.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:11

So, like, if you.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:12

But if you can maintain, like, a spark of that childlike wonder as you grow and then somehow shed it all back to become that childlike wonder again, like, I think, like, that is where.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:23

Like, that is like my happy place.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:25

That is where I'm trying to.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:26

To get back to that childlike wonder more.

Host: 01:27:31

That's a very difficult task, I think, because you need to balance both in a way that works all the time.

Host: 01:27:39

Right.

Host: 01:27:40

You have to figure out when to use certain things and when to know when to do things.

Russell Nolte: 01:27:45

Absolutely.

Host: 01:27:47

What is one extraordinary book, podcast, documentary or tool that has made the biggest impact on you?

Russell Nolte: 01:27:54

Okay, so in the past year, the book that made the most impact was called the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:03

I read it on a whim.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:04

It happened to be available on Libby, and it blew my mind because I have for my whole life been told that perfectionism is bad.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:14

And this is the first time in my life that I was told it's not perfectionism that is bad.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:20

It is the fact that you are fueling your perfectionism with punishment instead of radical compassion.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:30

And if you took the energy from punishment to radical compassion, radical self compassion specifically, then your perfectionism would be like a boon.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:45

And I am 40 years old.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:47

I'd never heard anyone tell me that perfectionist was anything but bad before.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:51

And so that is the.

Russell Nolte: 01:28:53

That I'm literally still blown away even every time I say it.

Host: 01:28:59

Well, yeah.

Host: 01:29:00

How do we turn something that we all, as a society view as a fault and turn it into something that can work for us instead of against us?

Host: 01:29:10

And normally we don't do that.

Host: 01:29:12

Normally we just accept things.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:14

Well, and I think that, like, as a creator, we are prone to perfectionism because, like, we want our art to be perfect.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:20

We want it to say the exact thing that we want.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:22

We want that.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:23

We get upset when it doesn't do the.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:25

The canvas doesn't do the thing that we want, or the.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:28

The words don't come across in the way that we want.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:30

Like, we have to.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:32

We're.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:32

We.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:33

You're prone to this thing.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:34

And so it's like, how can you be artistic and fuel that, like, need to be to that need for specificity?

Russell Nolte: 01:29:41

Like, I love that Wicked movie, but I love it because, like, it is so specific.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:46

Like, the, like, the choices that they made are, like, so very, very, very detail oriented.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:54

Like, it is.

Russell Nolte: 01:29:55

It is the perfectionism of John Chu that, like, that like, made it the thing that it is.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:02

And it's like, so that is not bad.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:06

It's just like, we have to find ways.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:09

A lot of this is about fuel, right?

Russell Nolte: 01:30:12

It's like, well, how are we fueling our creativity?

Russell Nolte: 01:30:15

A lot of people start by fueling their creativity with spite.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:19

Because, like, someone's like, you can't do it.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:22

And you're like, screw you, I'm doing it anyway.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:25

And so you so, like.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:28

But, like, spite burns hot, but it does not burn clean.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:33

So you start to, like, get, like, black and tarry, and it stops feeling good.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:38

And then so, like, all of what we're trying to do is, like, feed the.

Russell Nolte: 01:30:43

Like, how do I stay true to the art without, like, burning myself out?

Russell Nolte: 01:30:50

And it's really hard when a big part of your art is fueled by perfectionism, some level of perfectionism.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:00

So specifically for creators, I think there's a lot of people who can be sloppy.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:05

I think creators are sloppy in a lot of parts of their life, but I do not think creators in general are sloppy with the art that they try to create because they are trying to elicit a specific reaction with it.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:19

Usually.

Host: 01:31:21

Yeah.

Host: 01:31:22

Makes a lot of sense.

Host: 01:31:25

What do you think makes a creative business stand out?

Host: 01:31:28

And what is one piece of advice based on your journey that would help other creative businesses stand out?

Russell Nolte: 01:31:34

Okay, I just said most of my advice over the course of this.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:37

Yeah, of course, in this talk.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:39

But.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:41

So people hate branding.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:44

I don't know why they hate branding, but they hate two things.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:47

They hate branding and they hate marketing.

Russell Nolte: 01:31:50

And I find it really silly because do you know the number one way to do less marketing?

Russell Nolte: 01:31:59

It's to get a brand that is killer.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:03

So that every per.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:04

Every person that comes to your website or your page goes, I love it.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:08

I'm there.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:10

And so, like, if you want to do less marketing, if you want to have to be less places, like, a good business has incredible and specific branding that lets you.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:25

Lets you imagine who they are and lets you know who.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:29

Who they're talking to the minute that they hit.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:32

The minute that they hit their webpage or come in interaction.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:35

Branding is spe.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:39

Branding speaks for you when you can't speak for yourself.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:42

So I think that a great brand, I think a great brand only exists when you understand who your audience is and what you're trying to sell, which is.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:53

But like, it express.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:56

It's not enough to only do that.

Russell Nolte: 01:32:58

You then have to express it outward.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:00

If you don't want to do a billion hours of marketing.

Host: 01:33:06

How would you Describe your brand.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:09

So I'm going to just turn this for a second just so other people can see it.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:13

So our brand is for rebellious, creative people who are practical and also are no nonsense, that do that go against authority and who want to generally laugh at the absurdity of the universe.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:35

So I don't do demographic branding.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:37

I do psychographic branding, which is the internal factors.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:41

We have fans from 8 to 8, 80, and they all kind of have that rebellious spirit they all have.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:52

They're also generally very weird.

Russell Nolte: 01:33:59

The weirder the better.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:00

Honestly, like non fiction, we tend to, like, attract people that are willing to open to new experiences.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:10

And even for my.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:12

Are non fiction.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:13

Like, I just did an email series about, like, bending reality and how it's like being a mage.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:21

And I'm like, a very specific kind of person is willing to take that journey.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:26

And, like, I think: 100999

Russell Nolte: 01:34:38

Please stop.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:39

Please stop.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:40

But, like, we are very magnetizing to, like, a person.

Russell Nolte: 01:34:45

Person who enjoys, like, absurdism and enjoys thinking about these things that are hard, like capitalism, without, like, taking it too seriously.

Host: 01:35:04

Yeah.

Host: 01:35:04

Once you know that, like, that's so specific that you're not going to try to reach somebody that's outside of that range because you know that they're not going to get it.

Host: 01:35:14

So you want the people that get it.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:17

Yeah, but I also think I.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:18

We have to be broadly.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:21

You.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:21

You don't have to be broadly appealing, but you have to be broad in where you're in scope.

Host: 01:35:27

Right.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:27

Because, like, you have to reach a lot of people with the knowledge that most of them are going to think you're weirdo and run away from you so that, like, a few people are, like, no, this.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:40

These.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:40

This is the God.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:41

Like, this.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:41

These are the ones.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:43

And that is the opposite of the other thing we talked about where, like, you're just broadly appealing to everyone.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:48

And, like, that's a better.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:51

If money is your end, that is a better choice.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:55

Be broadly appealing to anyone.

Russell Nolte: 01:35:56

But if money is the means, like, you should be very specific.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:01

But still, I'm not sure the actions are that different from, like, you still want to be on as many podcasts as possible.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:10

You still want to, like, be out there.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:12

You still want to, like, have your.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:13

You still want to have a mailing list.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:14

It's just like, maybe it's even more important for you to, like, be broadly appealing from the other person because they brought the broadly appealing person.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:23

Can Always find the market.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:26

You have a harder time finding the market because if you're not constantly doing this work.

Host: 01:36:33

Yeah, it's.

Host: 01:36:34

It's a hard thing to balance being as broad as possible while also talking to somebody specifically.

Host: 01:36:41

But until you find a giant audience, you're not going to find that person because they're somewhere else.

Host: 01:36:47

You know, you need to.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:48

But this is what.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:48

But this is why Wicked is so amazing.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:51

Because it has incredible specificity.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:54

I don't know if I've ever seen a movie with the kind of specificity that Wicked has.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:58

And it is all.

Russell Nolte: 01:36:59

It is because of that, that it is broadly appealing.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:02

Like, the choices that specifically Ariana Grande make in that movie are like, every camera, motion, every word, everything is so specific and it is so weird.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:16

Like, they're like, like.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:18

And yet it is so broadly appealing, which is what it goes back to.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:21

The thing that we're like.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:22

You can be both, it's just harder to be both.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:25

My friend Dave Baker, he's been in this business as long or longer than I have, and everyone was like, he had a book called Action Hospital, which was like, great, I love Action Hospital.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:38

No one read it.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:38

It was so weird.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:39

But his new book, Mary Tyler Moorhawk, because he's had a bunch of hits, people were more open to this new book that is just as weird as the Action Hospital book.

Russell Nolte: 01:37:52

But, like, he was able to, like, have people have a more open mind to it.

Host: 01:37:58

Now, John Chu did that with the dancing movie that he did.

Host: 01:38:03

He wouldn't be able to do these moves Wicked if he hadn't done the steps to get there.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:08

Right.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:08

Exactly.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:09

And a lot of times that is what you need to do.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:12

A lot of times it's like, well, maybe you need to play the game so that people are.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:17

See people come to your work.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:19

And a book, like, already knowing if they will like it or not.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:23

Mostly.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:24

Mostly.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:25

Not always.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:25

But like most pe.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:27

Like, if they know that Dave Baker makes good books, which he does and he made, he makes great books, then they're willing to try to open his weird book.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:40

It's like, which is like a meta narrative on culture.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:44

Like, and.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:44

And take that, that, that journey with him.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:47

But like, if you don't know, oh, it's all going to be okay.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:51

Like, Dave already has all these stories.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:53

He knows what he's doing.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:54

You're going to see this weird stuff and be like, I don't know if I'm going to like it.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:58

I'm just going to put it away.

Russell Nolte: 01:38:59

So sometimes to make.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:01

To get our like, weird thing made.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:04

We have to make people receptive to hearing that message, which means we have to do, like, more.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:13

We have to show people what the ride's gonna look like.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:17

It's like the only reason people enjoy roller coasters is because they know they're gonna live at the end.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:22

So it allows them to release their inhibition and embrace their fear.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:26

Just like horror movies.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:27

Right?

Russell Nolte: 01:39:28

So it's like, it's the structure, it's the knowledge, it's the, it's the long term stability of somebody.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:35

It's seeing people's names before that makes them, it's being and, and, and, and broadly being able to pull from so many places that gives people the ability to join the journey in, like, the thing you actually want to show them.

Russell Nolte: 01:39:55

Sometimes you have to spend years showing people what they want, what they think they want, before you can like, actually show them what they, what you're actually trying to do.

Host: 01:40:07

Yeah.

Host: 01:40:07

If you're willing to put up with that journey, I think that end result is ultimately what every creative person is looking for, is that.

Host: 01:40:15

But first to do that, you have to get enough appeal to be able to do that.

Host: 01:40:22

Because no one's going to go into that, that weird thing in the beginning and say, like, oh, this is amazing because.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:27

Right.

Host: 01:40:28

It's too out there.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:30

Well, you know, I was doing the, the Kickstarter stuff for years before Monica released our get your book selling on Kickstarter.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:37

And everyone laughed at me.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:39

Everyone's like, kickstarter doesn't isn't anything.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:41

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing it.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:44

And suddenly we had a campaign and Monica was like, no, I like it.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:48

And then we raised like $25,000 or $20,000 for it.

Russell Nolte: 01:40:52

And people were like, oh, the same people who were making fun of me literally six months before suddenly are like, oh, there's something to do here.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:01

But I needed Monica and I told her.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:03

I was like, monica, I need you to like, validate this idea.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:09

Otherwise no one, like, it needs somebody to validate it who, like, people trust.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:15

And she was like, I don't know if that's true.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:17

And later she's like, you really are right.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:19

And six months later, Brandon Sandstone had that campaign.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:22

We had a monster: 2022

Russell Nolte: 01:41:41

It was.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:42

That's not the, it's the same information.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:44

It's the same information I'd always given.

Russell Nolte: 01:41:47

But people, the people came to it receptive.

Host: 01:41:51

It's all about trust, I think, because if they don't know you, they're not going to trust you.

Host: 01:41:55

You just sound weird.

Host: 01:41:55

But once they trust you, they're willing to.

Host: 01:41:59

To see.

Host: 01:42:00

Right.

Host: 01:42:01

See for them for sure.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:02

Absolutely.

Host: 01:42:04

Can you give the listeners a challenge that they can take action on right now?

Russell Nolte: 01:42:09

Ooh, I do, because I just, I just put one up today.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:12

So this is my challenge to everyone.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:16

Take something you have posted, made, created something that you've made more than one year ago and repost it without telling anyone that you did it, that you've done it before, and just see what the reaction is.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:35

Because most likely you will get the same or better reaction than you got and no one will even remember that you made it.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:45

Maybe one or two people will remember that you made it.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:48

But we release books that have been, like, released before.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:52

We put chapters in our books that have been there before.

Russell Nolte: 01:42:56

Very few people complain because people actually want to see the thing.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:01

Like, have you ever seen a meme?

Russell Nolte: 01:43:03

Memes are popular.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:05

You could see a meme a thousand times over 10 years.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:08

But like, in our own work, we.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:10

We don't do it.

Host: 01:43:13

Yeah, most people have not seen the thing.

Host: 01:43:16

Especially if you're growing the audience like you did exponentially.

Host: 01:43:21

Odds are if you did it a year ago, no one is going to know that you already did it unless they're looking through all your stuff.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:26

Absolutely.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:27

And every time we bring up the same topics, people are like, oh, I forgot about that.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:31

Thank you so much for talking about it.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:33

And it's like, well, just, yeah, you could go back and read the book, but they won't because everyone is so.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:40

Everyone is on a trajectory that, like, is forward thinking.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:44

They don't go back and reread the things or they don't want to find the things again.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:47

A lot of times you read something and be like, oh, they don't go back and read that book.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:51

But it'll take seeing it again.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:53

So you can.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:54

The only caveat to this is you cannot tell people that you did it before.

Russell Nolte: 01:43:59

You just have to do it.

Host: 01:44:03

Awesome.

Host: 01:44:04

Well, Russell has been really amazing talking to you.

Host: 01:44:06

I think you've provided so much value for people, especially with your creative journey.

Host: 01:44:11

And just a bunch of thoughts on that.

Host: 01:44:14

Can you let people know where they can keep up with you?

Russell Nolte: 01:44:18

Sure.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:19

So I have a blog called the Author Stack, which talks all about these kind of tactics and tricks, even though a lot of it's just two writers.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:27

It's expanded.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:28

I mean you can use this other strategies but it's@theauthorstack.com that's probably the best way.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:34

I also have a book called how to build your creative career that I did a while ago which is good.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:39

Like a general broad.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:40

It talks about all creativity.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:43

Yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:43

And then Writer MBA is our conference.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:45

It's in New Orleans.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:46

It's very fun.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:47

It's in March.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:48

You guys should all come.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:49

It's going to be a blast.

Host: 01:44:51

And you also offer a free book that people can download.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:54

Oh yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:55

I mean a bunch of free books.

Russell Nolte: 01:44:56

I don't even know which book you're talking about.

Host: 01:44:59

Whatever the one is on your landing page right now.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:01

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:03

Whatever the one is there, that's the one we do.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:05

We offer that book.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:07

Yeah, it cycles too.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:08

I mean when you've got 40 or 50 books on a topic, it's like it always is cycling.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:13

But yes, we do offer and if you join the author stack, you get a couple of free books as well.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:19

I think you get a book ebook called how to.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:24

It's called how to the secret of making a living as a self published author.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:29

And then another one which is like how to get a book publishing deal.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:33

So either way you want to go about it, you get something awesome.

Host: 01:45:36

Well, yeah.

Host: 01:45:37

Thanks again Russell.

Host: 01:45:38

It's been awesome.

Russell Nolte: 01:45:39

Thanks for having me.